OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions On Victa Two Stroke Engines Points - Electronic Module Replacement?

I'm curious as to how this module replaces the points and condenser on the points ignition, what do you use to actually trigger the spark? what does it use as a pulse coil?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/140985383145?

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I have just purchased one of these to fit into my villiers. My coil is good, but no spark. So cut the wire from the points and connect this in between. I have yet to do this but the video on youtube makes it look quite easy.


Here is the link

Hi Millzy, keep us updated on how it goes, I still can't see what actually causes the spark, you need 3 things, pickup sensor from the crank, the igniter module and the coil. The Briggs and later Powertorque have them incorporated into the single coil pack. I'm interested if they work because I have a number of full crank points motors that don't have spark. I also have several sidepull full cranks and this module should fix most of those easily

Will do, once i find some free time from buying all these reel mowers!!

I have asked the seller how it works I should have an answer in a couple of days hopefully. You certainly have your work cut out with those mowers

They won't know, I'd bet.

It'd be just a 'black box' to them, full of magic smoke! You'd know about that; it's the stuff that Brit bike electrics work on - electrons are a myth! When the smoke gets out, things stop working...

See my post near the bottom of this page for info and references; https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/83322/

Thanks Gadge, I would still like to know where it picks up the trigger from the crank but I guess it must come from the coil itself

Yes it does, from the rate of rise change in coil primary voltage, as the flywheel magnets swing past the coil/armature.

Edit: I've just read the Atom patent in detail, and firing is triggered when the primary voltage rises to a 'trigger voltage', which is set by the values of certain circuit components.

Sounds like it is probably a Schmitt trigger in that little tin box.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Electronic/schmitt.html
If you are into 70's rock you have probably heard them in action on guitar effects pedals.

Thanks for that, clever little buggers aren't they, I have one on the way so I can have a play with it in the next few days

those things been round since 1980s in one form or another for small engines
only thing it does is to act as a electronic switch instead of mechanical a switch as in points
they don't work on all engines depends on how many flywheel magnets

There use to be some bloke on eBay who claimed he could replace almost any Bosch ignition system with an electronic ignition. Can't seem to be find his ad any more. This upgrade would of course be possible for the technological-minded, which I'm not.

In any case I recently found that the same old points ignition system that was used on my vintage mowers is still alive and well in Germany and Italy. Ducati are in fact still making them for scooters and mopeds. They work perfectly. Only difference is the central gap for the shaft is a bit smaller on the plate, but as these are made of soft alloy it is a very easy job to file it out a few mm wider.

We have a few Flying Fleas in the club that could do with that type of electronic ignition. I set one up a few years ago with battery powered points coil ignition and that works well but a magneto would be better. I also have one here I was going to see if I could fit a Lifan ignition/stator setup but haven't got around to it. I also had one setup that you had to use a battery to get it started and then switch it back to the points/coil powering the external coil setup so it would rev, but then when you you switched the lights on it would stall the motor, so it still sits in the shed. Another one sitting in the same shed has not run in many years because of no spark. The old Lucas Prince of Darkness ignition was not too flash

The problem with any component out of China is getting hold of useful tech info about it. Even 'which wire connects to what' level stuff.

My bike mech mate, Pete Allica, ran up against this issue a few weeks back, when looking to replace the ignition module on a Chinese made quad bike - IIRC either the bike or the replacement module was a Lifan.

He did however find a source for that info - but I can't ask him for details just now, as he's over in China for another week.

Got the new module yesterday but I was quite surprised how small it is compared to the factory Victa modules. If I get a chance today I will fit it on a motor and see if I get spark.

G'day everyone,

I got out the old VC160 yesterday it's been sitting for around 10 years or so. Anyway I tried to start it and it's got no spark at all.

First thing I tried before taking all the top of it apart to check the points etc, I removed the kill switch wire from the carby just in case it was shorted out, nope still no spark at all.

Took all the bits off the top of the engine last night, the damn flywheel was seized on there, had to end up making up a bit of metal and some bolts as a puller to pull the damn thing up a little and then after some foul language and a couple of large screwdrivers on each end I got the bugger off! lol

I have a spare set of points and condensor here which I will probably change out as the points in the mower just looked like they were corroded, I tried to clean them up a bit but now that the bugger is all apart I might just change them as I have a spare set here.

I still haven't tracked down why it has no spark, but after this ordeal I am seriously thinking about converting it to electronic ignition as I think it's more reliable and also even it you leave the mower for a few years it will probably still have spark when you try it again after a while. I left a powertorque engine with electronic ignition sit for 10 years and when I tried it again the spark was fine.

I just want to ask do these electronic kits actually do away with the points completely? Or do you still have to keep the points in there to do the switching for the electronic module? If the points are still used for the switching I know the electronic ignition reduces the current being switched and makes them stay in tune and last alot longer. But it won't stop the points from corroding after sitting idle for years. It's best to get rid of the points completely if converting to electronic ignition.

Cheers!

Hi Converse,
You could have saved yourself all the grief of pulling the flywheel off, just cut the black wire that comes out of the side of the crankcase and connect a module to it. A module from a SPFC or a PT will work fine. Points/condenser just leave in there they are redundant once the module is fitted

Hi NormK, did you end up getting one of these electronic modules from ebay to work on your engines? I don't have any spare modules from other Victa engine's here. They don't cost that much I will just grab one if they work ok.

Cheers!

I only bought one of the ebay ones just to see if they work and it worked fine. I have tested the PT ones on the F/Cs and they work , no problems. Just wait a bit, you will find another PT on the nature strip and you can use the module off it or as luck would have it you will find a PT with the module built inside the coil and you will then have to wait for another PT to turn up and then it might have a bad module (occasionally this happens) and then you will have to wait to find another PT, and quickly you have 30 mowers sitting there and you ask yourself, what have I done. Get what I am saying

Hi NormK and thanks for the help mate!

Haha yes I know what your saying, I am starting to have mowers all over the place it's starting to happen already! lol

Now I even have that B&S 4 stroke here aswell. Hey if that doesn't work then when I get a good PT engine I can maybe fit the PT to that base...lol

I might just throw in the points and condensor for now as I have them sitting here anyway. See how it goes but seen as this mower will probably go into storage again I am thinking about converting it to electronic ignition. I don't want to be taking all the covers off again just to check/adjust clean or change the points again. It's not as easy as on a car where the points are just sitting under the distributor cap. Got to take half the mower apart, then remove the stuck on flywheel just to get to them on the old VC160...lol

Cheers!

A VC-160 with EI would be interesting. Matter of fact, a 1960s Corvette with EI would be interesting!
You could then mount a SuperStart sticker on them haha!

I have new points and condensers here but I see no reason why I would ever bother fitting them. I got them in a bulk parts deal

Only if you run out of modules (unlikely) and need to get a points ignition motor back on the road.

Hi NormK,

The only thing I can represent the contactor and condenser electronically is to use a TRIAC with some components around it. I attach a concept drawing and calculation to represent the circuit. This module has been around since 1980 and TRIAC already been developed since 1970 as an electronic switch. In my calculation I tried to use 4.3k and 240 Ohms resistor for the 5V divider. That means when you measure the resistance between the pin and ground is equal to (4.3k + 0.24) is equal to 4.54k. I don't know what's the actual resistance of the module. It maybe different from my chosen values.

Cheers,
TheCarbyMaster

G'day everyone,

I ended up changing out the points and condensor last night, I have checked the points that I removed and also the condensor with a multimeter.

The contact points seem to be making a good contact and were probably still fine after I gave them a clean, but anyway because I had a new set I changed them out.

I also tested the condensor (capacitor) on my meter and it also seems fine and was probably still ok to use but as I had a spare I just changed it anyway. I also checked the kill switch on the carby lever, and it also worked fine and was not shorting out.

Now here's the funny thing and I am kicking myself a bit. When I replaced these with new parts it still didn't seem to have a spark, now I am thinking maybe the coil is gone or there is something wrong with the spark plug lead that runs from the coil to the spark plug. I checked the screw at the end of the lead which is inside the spark plug boot and it's very clean and didn't look rusted at all. So anyway I removed the screw and noticed inside the wire looked a little corroded. So I put the screw back in again and screwed it in the wire more to try and make a good contact. Bingo I now have spark! Damn and I even remember NormK mentioning this a few weeks ago when he didn't have spark on his mower, but because I knew this mower used to run and the screw/wire looked clean on the outside I assumed the connection was fine! Damn well you know what i'll be checking first now on any mower I find that doesn't have a spark! LOL!

I looked at the schematic diagram you have there Thecarbymaster, the problem is these days you can buy a ready made module for $20 on ebay shipped to your door.

Yes the original Victa modules and even the aftermarket one's available probably have similar circuits inside to the diagram you have shown on here.

But I think by the time you are to buy the parts and construct the circuit yourself, it's probably cheaper and easier to just buy a ready made unit.

Cheers!

"it's probably cheaper and easier to just buy a ready made unit."

Cheaper again is to just keep picking up Powertorques off the side of the road

Hi Converse and NormK,

Yes it's much cheaper to buy a ready made module than building one. The parts plus time will cost more than $20. At least we understand what's possibly inside the black box and how it could possibly works.

To explain how it works, normally with contact point, the contact stays open 98% of the time and it only close when pushed by the cam. The condenser is used to absorb any arching and store the energy for the next contact cycle. Contact arching can ignite the fuel so we don't want this to happen. Now the circuit works the same thing. The TRIAC stays open 98% of the time while the energy or voltage is stored in the capacitor. That voltage also bias the hall effect sensor through a voltage divider resistor R1 & R2. Assuming the potential voltage is 100V, the supply voltage to the hall effect is 5V. Limiting resistor R3 is used for the TRIAC gate drive current limiting. The hall effect with Schmitt trigger output magnetic sensor turns on when the flywheel magnet pass through it which drives the gate which caused the TRIAC to conduct or short circuit. This cycle will repeat energising the primary winding and discharge to the secondary winding which produce high voltage spark. Next time I would like to design and prototype an inline LED spark tester to detect shorted spark plug, weak spark or no spark or can be represented with inline digital high voltage meter.

Cheers,
TheCarbyMaster

G'day everyone,

Just a question on this Victa Module that's available here at Outdoorking. I read the description and it says that when using this electronic module on earlier 125cc and 160cc engines when replacing points, to use a different coil with a part number "050316-634" that I think is no longer available?

I also checked an ebay seller that has this same module for sale and it says that this type of module suits powertorque engines from 1988 to 1996.

Is this because these later engines had different ignition coils that can work with this module? I basically want to know if one of these modules will work with the original factory Victa coils on early 2 stroke engines with points ignitions?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers!

Hi Converse,
I can't guarantee they will work with the original coil, but the ones I have converted have worked without any issues. What I have also found is that the modules from the sidepull and the PT work fine. As I said I can't guarantee it but I think they will work fine and I assume the coil number you quoted was for the later motors that used the G3 carb and had the kill switch wire coming outside the crankcase

Hi NormK,

Thanks again for all the help mate. They don't cost all that much I will just grab one anyway and see how it goes. I will test it out on this old VC160 scrap find I have here and if it doesn't work I always have a spare set of points and condensor here to throw in if I need to.

With that coil number I mentioned I think it was just a reference number for the Outdoorking shop here. I have tried an online search and nothing turns up with that number.

Cheers!