OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions On Briggs & Stratton Engines Old Briggs Staionery Motor Model 141332

Hi forum, I need some help.
[u]The long story , I was visiting an elderly friend and he had an old lawn beetle mower out in front of his shed. I know he mows his asparagus patch about this time of year and his tractor was not going so I guessed he was trying to get the lawn mower started. He was convinced it was a spark problem so I offered to have a look at it and threw it into the back of the car. As it turned out spark was not the problem the spark plug lead was just shorting out before it got to the plug. Quite a few years ago I bought a spark tester, I figure it has paid for itself in skinned knuckles, twisted elbows and time saved. Problem was the fuel, if any, in the tank had gone off and the rest appeared to be just topped up with water. (Could be that's why his tractor wont start) Cleaned the carburettor and tank, added some fuel and it went first pull. I have heard of these lawn beetles before probably on this forum and was impressed with how smoothly and quietly it ran. Filled with the euphoria of having had a win I chucked it in the car and took it back out. He may be elderly and possibly silly enough to put water in the fuel tank but he is still pretty sharp. He asked me if I would like to have the beetle, as he had bought a new mower a few years ago when it would not start. I said sure but you just keep it here until I need it.
He asked if I could have a look at the Briggs I think he had it out of the shed and ready to go when I got there.
The shorter story [/u]
The Briggs is a stationery engine and has an 8cm square piece of metal attached to the fuel line with a bit of electrical cable. I think originally it would have riveted onto the air cowling. The only similar motor I have seen in the forum was a post from Marvic asking for help to identify his Briggs. https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/20530.html#Post20530.
The details on this one are Model Number 141332 Type Number 500649 Serial Number 32627
My spark tester could not find any spark and after watching a couple of U-tube videos I figured the condenser was not working. A credit to outdoor king that they appeared to stock a suitable condenser and coil but also offered the electronic ignition module. Any one who knows me would have guessed that I would go for the cheaper option, ignition module installed great regular spark and ready for a test run ( I had put quite a bit of oil down the plug hole and flushed it with a little diesel prior to giving it an oil change and pulled the carburettor off and cleaned it and the tank while I was waiting for the parts)

With a little petrol down the plug hole I got about 5 pops to one back fire through the carburettor all fairly feeble. I thought maybe the backfire could be a valve.
Pulled the head off and was pleased to find the cylinder bore to be in good condition and could not feel any slack in the piston the valves and valve seats also look to be in good condition. I did not remove them but you cannot blow back through the carburettor or exhaust when the appropriate valve is closed. Valve clearances are 0.011 for exhaust and 0.007 for intake. I put it back together and checked the compression which was 100, probably acceptable for this engine? Does any body have a recommended head bolt torque?

So I had a second look at the carburettor and maybe I have found the problem, when I disassembled the carburettor it was a little tricky to get apart as the main jet outlet (not sure what it is called) was extended right up into the top of the carburettor and catching on the float when you tried to pull it apart. I just reassembled it the same, only not putting the jet in until I had assembled the carburettor. Unfortunately I get an error message:" Files can be no larger than 0 Bytes."
when I try to upload a photo so when I get that sorted out I will post a photo as it would be a lot more obvious then my explanation.
Althought I think it is a fuel problem, the other thing that I can think off is the electronic ignition module, I believe that I have read somewhere on this forum that some of these older motors may have a positive earth, and it will not damage the ignition module if I just change it around. Not really concerned about the positive earth but will it damage the ignition module if I swap it around?
I will get back with the photo.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

I have managed to get the photos into the image gallery where you can view them but still working on getting them here

Hello Byomarimba

I hope we haven't stuffed up here.
This must be frustrating and may go to permissions in this forum.

I will pass this one on to Bruce, to see whether we have an access problem
in this forum.

You have presented an interesting story here.

Many thanks
--------------------------
Jack

That is an old down draft flo-jet carburetor. The part your referring to is call a nozzle. Yes it must be removed during the disassembly and re-assembly.

Also note that these nozzles are prone the leaking as they use a metal to taper seal. If this is a problem then you need a new nozzle as the following fix will destroy the old one. Using old nozzle file off the threading, Now using the old nozzle using a fine valve lapping compound on the taper polish the seat in the carburetor. Once polished and cleaned, install the new nozzle and it should be leak free.

Plus the main mixture screw can be a problem leaking if an after market assembly is use as the their threading is too loose to match what Briggs used.

Hopefully around has the IPL for this one as the Briggs Power Portal here doesn't show one although they show 141331-5006-49 as valid number.

Hi all,
I've moved this post to the more appropriate sub topic "Questions On Briggs & Stratton Engines"
Hopefully, you'll be able to post pictures to this thread now.
Cheers, Ted

Thanks Jack Bigted and Bruce. I think the photo will work now at least I have got past the earlier stage.

Thanks AVB, unfortunately I don't have the level of smarts to know what you are talking about, or I have failed to communicate the problem successfully. I think what you mean is that the nozzle should be screwed all of the way in once the carburettor is assembled. With the result being like the picture?

I am guessing that the carburettor seat is completely missing, which is why the only thing stopping the nozzle from screwing in further is the carburettor throat, you can see a restriction at the end of the hole that the nozzle screws into but it does not look like a manufactured seat. Hopefully the pictures will help explain it (they don't show when I preview the post, I will check after posting). Should there be another part on the nozzle which butts up against something in the carburettor. I think your suggestion about after market parts is correct as the float needle valve is plastic The existing nozzle is 2" long possibly it is not the correct one at all.


It would seem that it would be very difficult to source parts for the carburettor if that is the problem, what is the likely hood that a carburettor off from a more recent motor would fit and make the motor run?

I cannot help but feel that there is another problem somewhere, my past experience with these old motors is that they are very forgiving in relation to settings and may not run well but will still run. I would expect the engine to run a little by putting a little fuel in the plug hole. Did you have any thoughts on reversing the polarity on the ignition module? Is it likely to damage the module?

I have tested the compression 3 more times the third time with a little oil in the cylinder and it was 75psi and about 77 the third time. My earlier reading of 100 must have been an error.

I did notice that the magnet on the flywheel is at about 3 or 4 o'clock when the piston is at top dead centre, but as it is a single cylinder with a keyed crankshaft (I have assumed it is the crankshaft) there is not much room for the timing to be out.

Thanks, hopefully the pictures are there

I was wrong on the type of carburetor as that one is an updraft version. I think got one still in the donor pile of equipment. It will take a day or two dig it out.Right now I got a John Deere 445 rider that I got find out what is wrong with it.

I wish I could find an IPL of this engine so I can reference it so I don't lead down the wrong path. I will try to see Briggs can provide me with a copy of the IPL but they may not even have it here in the US.

Meanwhile, the flywheel magnets should align fairly close to the coil legs. If not and you haven't physically checked the key I would suspect that it might be sheared. On the coil it should be a magneto setup so flipping it would hurt coil just throw the firing timing off quite a bit. These coils are usually labeled with one side as "This side out".

As for the compression what was the dry compression vs the wet compression of 75-77 psi. You should be around 70-90 dry. This would be high if it wasn't for the ACR (automatic compression release) bump on the camshaft. Now valve clearance being too little can cause erroneous compression readings as the ACR will cause it the engine to overly decompress.

Thanks AVB
You were right the flywheel key was sheared off. A little bit left on the end so it appeared OK. I remember it being particularly difficult to get in, in the first place so that should have been a clue to check it more carefully when I discovered the odd positioning of the magneto magnets to TDC.

The compression readings were 75 dry and 77 with the oil. I may not have put enough oil (probably less then a teaspoon) in to get a correct wet reading, but I will concentrate on getting the timing right and see if that creates any more encouraging sounds.

I will not be able to sort anything for a day or so but should have an update for you Wednesday or Thursday your time.

Ahh then the cylinder and rings should be fine as that pre-test test is use to indicate if the cylinder condition is bad in place of the standard leakdown which should be done if the there was huge difference between the dry and wet tests.

When installing the key make you torque the flywheel to spec which I am thinking should be 55 ft-lbs or at least that is the 130000 series spec. If you have the screw-on rewind starter clutch then you should use the the starter clutch tool to do the torquing. It large tool as it has to fit over the clutch but makes things a lot easier then using a hammer and punch for removal too.

G'day all
When it comes to Briggs, AVB knows his stuff.
Many thanks to Mod BigTed for the forum maintenance.

I think this model may be illustrated here:-
https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/84986/briggs-stratton-brochure-c1963.html

Please keep us informed as to progress.

Cheers
----------------------
Jack

Thanks Jack, pretty sure this motor would be the 141300 series, would you risk a guess at year of manufacture?

Thanks AVB, I had a lot of trouble with the key, I have just used a piece of 3/16' key steel with a lot of filing. May not have had this problem if I put that much effort into it first time around. I probably only have around 20 ft-lbs on the clutch so I will give it a little more tomorrow. Reluctant to go all the way to 50 with the tools I have as the clutch would be easy to break. I could take it off and try to find a nut with the same thread.
The good news is that if you put a little fuel down the plug hole it runs, (surprisingly quite smoothly) for two or three seconds. The bad news is that that is it, no amount of cranking gets any more running, so I think I currently have the electrics right, and the current problem is with the carburettor.
If you think the nozzle I have is the correct one, and fits all the way into the carburettor throat I will try to work out a way to get it to seal.


I am back too 100 psi compression. The head gasket is in fairly ordinary condition so I gave it a spray with a product called Hylomar, I have had it for about 25 years but had good results with it on an old outboard motor with a warped block. Probably temporary but it would explain why I originally got 100psi and then only 75. Do you know what head bolt tension is likely to be?


Regards Randy

I would venture to guess that it is about 140-150 in/lbs since I have no info that model; just based on the 130000 series.

G'day folks,
Randy, it's interesting to find a 'serial number' - Briggs started to use a 'Code' rather than serial numbers around 1964-5.
The 'Code' is made up of a 6 digit manufacturing date [YYMMDD] followed by a one or two digit factory/plant location code.

So your engine is 1958 - early 1960's era, and maybe pre August 1964 if it has a Serial Number, not a Code.
A bit of info: https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106744
Using steel flywheel keys is a major no-no on aluminium Briggs engines; they intentionally use a soft metal key - aluminium or die cast zinc alloy.

This is so that if a sudden event [object strike, part failure] brings the engine shaft to an abrupt stop, the key will shear and: 1. Stop the engine firing, by altering the ignition timing 2. Protect the keyways from damage.
I'd say it is the correct one. This a a 'two-piece flo-jet' carby, and there is a cutaway diagram on p45 of the Repair Manual which shows the parts. The nozzle is designed to seal metal-to-metal, by the look of that, as AVB has said.

The manual you need is Briggs P/No CE8069, and you can download a free PDF copy [~21Mb] from HERE.

I just hope that the nozzle hasn't got bent - it should be removed before taking off the carby top.

165 in-lb is the Repair Manual spec for this model.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a parts list download available for this old model - the B&S search page I use recognises the Model/Type info, but doesn't have any docs available for it. http://bsintek.basco.com/MDEXResultsPages/default.aspx

Edit: Found an IPL! ; https://www.ereplacementparts.com/images/briggsandstratton/141300_Series.pdf

Looks like carby overhaul kits are still available from various suppliers, P/No 291691. OEM kits ain't cheap, though.
Flywheel key has current P/No 222698.

Tnx Gadge for the IPL link as I downloaded it to my library here too as this one may show up here is the US.

As The key I didn't catch that he used a steel key as you said normally it is a no no but there is a run engine of late model engine that they has to used on due to a manufacturing design problem.

You're right about the cylinder torque just extremely busy here so I had a little brain fog and overlook it in the antique repairman handbook. Plus this engine was new when I was still finding and playing with my toes. I don't many as old as me in my shop. Users here just too cheap to repair them around here. On top most the home mechanic can't even fix to newer engines.

Thanks Gage, It appears that me and the motor are about the same age, it is open for debate as to which is in better condition.

I can remember seeing these identification plates on motors in the past, can't recall if it was just on B&S or others as well.

I can probably get a genuine flywheel key from a B&S dealer, the one which had sheared off was just key metal stock but as I discovered they do not fit very well.

Thank you for the link to the manual, it is a great help. I have made a small amount of progress but still a long ways off. I am getting a regular pulse or pop back through the carburettor which I think indicates that it is running too lean (could easily be the other way around) Although the float valve seems to work perfectly when disassembled it does not appear to be working in practise, as there is fuel weeping out between the top and bottom of the carburettor and some even puddling in the carburettor throat, near the choke. Seems a little odd if it is running too lean.


I also have fuel flowing out if I remove the main jet needle and packing nut but looking at the diagram this may be normal?

I will try reassembling the carby without the float and a little gasket goo where the emulsion tube hits the idle circuit, and that will give me an indication if the emulsion tube is fitting into the correct spot. It may be that it is bent and not seating correctly as well as catching on the float and preventing it from working.


I think the chances of getting new replacement parts would be pretty slim, but I will stop in at my local B&S dealer and see what they have, there is actually a number 27917 (the only one I have come across) on the gasket so it is possible that some of these pieces were used in later models.


Thanks for your help this far and I will keep you posted on progress
Randy

Thanks again Gage, I did not see your second post, I will chase up the kit. It is unlikely to be economic to fix but the joy of seeing it run should make up the difference

Thanks AVB, Gadge and Jack
I finally bit the bullet and ordered the carburettor kit. What a difference a couple of pieces make. Starts on about the third pull, and runs fairly well. I have not had the opportunity to try it under load yet. I am not sure that I have the governor hooked up correctly just the way it was when I got it but there are not many possible combinations so I should be able to nut it out if need be.
It has a bit of a knocking rattle coming from the top of the motor, if it was a newer machine I would be a little concerned, but I suspect these older motors always had a few rattles. It is not the sort of noise I would associate with a main bearing but could be a broken ring, or a camshaft problem. Maybe a gudgeon pin.


Any how thanks for your help, it is a joy to see it running and well worth the cost of the kit. I could have spent that much money on something that would have been gone in an afternoon and left me with a head ache the next day. Thanks to Outdoor king for sending the parts express, WA actually stands for wait awhile so I did not expect them until next week.