Hi everyone. I am new to this forum and thought I'd show my mower and get any thoughts and ideas about the restoration project. I have had the mower for about 4 years and she goes quite well. I had always had a full resto in mind and now I have removed the reel and blade for machining thought that this might be the time to begin the process. Does anyone have any input about any of the the following: 1. This motor is very loud. I was thinking about packing the exhaust chamber with metal pot scourers or the like to quieten her down. Is there anything better to use> 2. What is the best solution to replace the nuts and bolts 3. Is there a close to original (and durable) paint that I can use to repaint the chassis. 4. Is there any way to tell when it was made. It has a kirby engine. 5. Does anyone have any insight about removing the engine from the chassis. It appears that the shaft near the clutch has a bolt without a head- does this need to be removed to separate the shaft from the engine.
Any tips and insight is greatly appreciated. I have some photos but am unsure how to upload them for all to see.
1. This motor is very loud. I was thinking about packing the exhaust chamber with metal pot scourers or the like to quieten her down. Is there anything better to use>
I don't think you'll have much success packing the muffler - steel wool usually burns, and it blows out whether it burns or not. The muffler probably has a baffle plate inside, and this has been eroded by exhaust gas until it has a hole straight through, in just the wrong place. You might consider separating the two halves of the muffler and then welding it back together with a new baffle, replicating the original one but perhaps a bit thicker.
2. What is the best solution to replace the nuts and bolts
Are they Whitworth? I doubt you can get new ones with Whitworth heads, but you can easily get bolts with Whitworth threads at your local hardware store.
3. Is there a close to original (and durable) paint that I can use to repaint the chassis.
Deejay is the Scott Bonnar guy - he has well-proven answers for that one.
4. Is there any way to tell when it was made. It has a kirby engine.
The Kirby engines were Lauson (i.e. Tecumseh) engines made under licence in Australia. The following is an extract from Tecumseh's 1990s manual explaining their engine number system - but it may have been different 40 years ago when they made your engine:
Using model LEV115-57010B, serial 8105C as an example, interpretation is as follows: LEV115-57010B is the model and specification number LEV Low Emissions Vertical 115 Indicates a 11.5 cubic inch displacement 57010B is the specification number used for properly identifying the parts of the engine 8105C is the serial number 8 first digit is the year of manufacture (1998) 105 indicates calendar day of that year (105th day or April 15, 1998) C represents the line and shift on which the engine was built at the factory. Engine Family: Engine Tracking Information
5. Does anyone have any insight about removing the engine from the chassis. It appears that the shaft near the clutch has a bolt without a head- does this need to be removed to separate the shaft from the engine.
You may find that you cannot remove that headless bolt - it is probably a captive cotter pin. You loosen the nut, tap it back and forth gently with a soft hammer, and leave it loose to slide it off the shaft. Yes, you have to remove the clutch to remove the engine.
Hi stu45, and a big warm welcome to the forum. I'ts always great to have another Scott Bonnar Model 45 owner on board, as we all love to learn new things and tinker here.
As far as I can tell, yours is a quite early machine, this I can tell by the early style handle bar logo, but not the earliest, by the fact that it has the plastic inserts at both ends of the front roller.I would hazard a guess at about 1972. Scott Bonnars are hard to date exactly as the mower numbers did not run in sequence.
Re: the nuts and bolts...I think you will find that all are SAE or A/F if you prefer, and are readily available at any REPCO shop or good hardware place or tool supply company.
Re: the paint.....Ahh...this is where we hit a snag...the formulae for the original green hammertone has long been lost to time...Galmet produce a grren hammertone, but it is too light in colour...The best I can suggest is if you want to restore to it's original colour, you take a piece of the machine to a reputable automotive paint supplier and get the guy to colour match some hammertone finish for you. Hammertone is very durable, hence it's use in a lot of industrial applications.
To remove the engine from the chassis, the clutch, as grumpy has said, has to be removed from it. The nut you can see on the inner clutch half needs to be loosened and carefully tapped down to release it, as it is a captive cotter pin. Once it's down, the engine (once it's bolts have been removed) should slide out from the clutch assy.
Hoping this helps, please keep us updated as you go along.
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
Hi everyone. I am new to this forum and thought I'd show my mower and get any thoughts and ideas about the restoration project. I have had the mower for about 4 years and she goes quite well. I had always had a full resto in mind and now I have removed the reel and blade for machining thought that this might be the time to begin the process. Does anyone have any input about any of the the following:
1. This motor is very loud. I was thinking about packing the exhaust chamber with metal pot scourers or the like to quieten her down. Is there anything better to use
get a new muffler, your local lawn mower shop should be able to source one for you
2. What is the best solution to replace the nuts and bolts
you can use pretty much any set of nuts and bolts from a hardware store, just remember to match the lenght of the bolts, otherwise theyll stick out too far. I used a set from supercheap to reattach my bedknife and they work fine, you will need to source proper engine bolts tho, try http://www.rcpw.com/ or http://www.jackssmallengines.com for engine parts
3. Is there a close to original (and durable) paint that I can use to repaint the chassis.
Septone hammertone green is a close off the shelf match, i used blue for mine which is a pretty close match, you can see pics of my restoration in this forum
4. Is there any way to tell when it was made. It has a kirby engine.
5. Does anyone have any insight about removing the engine from the chassis. It appears that the shaft near the clutch has a bolt without a head- does this need to be removed to separate the shaft from the engine.
unscrew the 4 bolts holding the engine on, the whole clutch casing will come away from the chassis as well, then you'll be able to jimmy the clutch casing from the engine.
Any tips and insight is greatly appreciated. I have some photos but am unsure how to upload them for all to see.
Hey Tezza, re: engine removal from a Model 45, you just undo the nut on the clutch cotter-pin, tap in down to release it from the shaft, and slide the engine out, you shouldn't have to jimmy it off. You could fracture the clutch half if you tackle it without extra care.
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm going to attack the clutch issue tomorrow. I imagine I will have to find two nuts to fit that cotter pin in order to rotate it. The muffler has a bolt that appears to connect the two halves so I'll also have a look at this tomorrow.
If I remove the three bolts around the clutch cone, will that allow me to to separate the engine from the other end of the clutch- so I don't have to worry about the cotter pin.
Deejay, I had a look at the front roller and took a closer photo and it appears to be some type on metal on the roller ends- any ideas.
Thanks again for everyones input, it is appreciated. Here are some more pics of the front of mower and rear of engine.
You need to rotate the nut, not the cotter pin. The cotter pin is captive and probably can't rotate - just unscrew the nut a few turns, and tap the threaded end of the cotter pin gently with a soft punch until it comes loose. Then you can slide the engine off. Don't dismantle the clutch except on the workbench.
Grumpy, I seem to have misrepresented the 'pin'. If you have a look at the second pic ( IMG 1095.jpg ) you can see a bolt on the engine side of the drive shaft near the clutch that has no head. This is the one I am unsure about. Does this hold the engine shaft to the drive shaft and require removing before I can get the engine off???
I don't think you have misrepresented anything. The object appears to be a cotter pin. There are two common types of these. First, there is the traditional type used on bicycle pedal cranks, locking them to the centerbracket axle. This type is not captive: it can easily be removed by taking the nut completely off, then tapping on the end of the thread with a brass punch (technically, a "drift") until it drops out completely. The other common type is captive. It cannot be removed except by sliding the shaft out first. I seem to have gleaned the information from previous threads on this site, that SB clutch cotter pins are the captive type. This means you loosen the nut, tap the threaded end gently with a drift until it becomes loose, and then slide the engine sideways away from the clutch (that is, extracting the end of the crankshaft from the bore of the clutch). Don't be concerned about the cotter pin not having a head. Heads are only used either to prevent rotation during installation, or to keep it from sliding right through the coupling. Neither is possible with either type of cotter pin that I have described here.
Grumpy, I seem to have misrepresented the 'pin'. If you have a look at the second pic ( IMG 1095.jpg ) you can see a bolt on the engine side of the drive shaft near the clutch that has no head. This is the one I am unsure about. Does this hold the engine shaft to the drive shaft and require removing before I can get the engine off???
stu45,
If you undo the nut until it is flush with the bolt end and then tap it on the end it will release from the crankshaft. The bolt shaft is half moon so when you tighten the nut up it locks onto the engine shaft.
Note the bolt does not come out until you remove the clutch housing from the engine shaft.
If you download the parts list from the parts list and manuals area you will see what I am talking about.
Regards,
Bruce
Please do not PM me asking for support. Post on the forums as it helps all members not just the individual.
Well, I now have the mower disassembled but the engine side of the clutch bell remains stuck. The cotter pin has about 3 or 4mm of movement into the shaft- should it drive in further than that. The bell itself will only slide on the shaft about 2 or 3 mm and I don't want to push it.
Has anyone else had this problem. Did you use a sprocket puller to get it off?
If you have loosened the cotter pin and it now slides freely back and forth for 3 or 4 mm, then the cotter pin is not stopping the clutch bell from coming off the crankshaft. The pin cannot move further than that, because of its shape. Try rotating the clutch bell on the shaft. It is almost certainly being kept from sliding off by dirt and rust on the shaft - wriggling it about may free it up without damaging anything. It can be removed by a gear puller of suitable size, if you have one, but that is a second-best option because the puller is capable of wrecking the parts - it can apply very large forces.
I agree, I was hoping not to resort to the puller in case I damage something. Its strange as all the mating parts had a nice thin coat of oil on them. I've been lucky this far as I haven't had much rust bonding parts together. I'll have to give it one last try tomorrow before getting the puller out. Thanks for the advice Grumpy.
Hey Tezza, re: engine removal from a Model 45, you just undo the nut on the clutch cotter-pin, tap in down to release it from the shaft, and slide the engine out, you shouldn't have to jimmy it off. You could fracture the clutch half if you tackle it without extra care.
i had to jimmy mine off, even after i released the cotter pin, its not gonna slide of the engine shaft without some 'gentle' persuasion
this is the cotter pin in question
you cant remove it from the clutch untill you reomve the clutch from the shaft.
If the clutch isnt sliding easily, then you will need to apply some force between the clutch and the engine shaft, you will either have to lever it off, or failing that you will have to take to it with a hammer. My clutch was stuck so i had to end up tapping it of with a block of wood and a hammer. No damage done and once its off you can clean it up and it'l slide easily
Thanks for a picture of the cotter pin. I had a look at the parts manual but the resolution isn't the best and I'm still not sure of how it locks the shafts together.
If you undo the nut until it is flush with the bolt end and then tap it on the end it will release from the crankshaft. The bolt shaft is half moon so when you tighten the nut up it locks onto the engine shaft.
Note the bolt does not come out until you remove the clutch housing from the engine shaft.
If you download the parts list from the parts list and manuals area you will see what I am talking about.
Hi stu45, the above quote should explain for you how it works, you will see it more clearly when you remove the engine. If you have to use "gentle persuasion" to get the clutch assy to slide off the engine shaft, just go easy as the alloy can fracture.(I've seen it happen) Best of luck with it,
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
Hi Tezza, mate, it all depends on how the machine has been maintained.If a machine has been used in (or left out) in wet weather, surface rust can set in and make removal difficult...but not all machines are that way. My cotter tapped down without any probs...clutch slid off without a hitch...The engine shaft still had a layer of oil on it.
BTW, Tezza, now that the Scotty is all complete and looking great,are you going to change your profile pic and avatar?. The Scotty sure looks weird with it's grass deflector sticking out....
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
I just joined tonight and spent the last 3 hours soaking up the knowledge you blokes have. My 45 is from around the 1976 mark judging by the code number on the B&S engine.
Deejay, in relation to the colour, you mentioned in an ealier post that you painted a toolbox Galmet "Jade Green" hammertone. Is this the closest colour you have seen? (without going down the colour matching path).
Hi Marko, and a big warm welcome to the forum. It's great to have another Scotty Model 45 on board.
Yes mate, Galmet "Jade Green" is the closest hammertone I've seen, but it is light in shade compared to the original; but Tezza has mentioned in a previous post that Septone produce a green hammertone that is closer still....I must get down to Supercheap Auto, who stock it, and check it out.
Once again
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
Thanks for a picture of the cotter pin. I had a look at the parts manual but the resolution isn't the best and I'm still not sure of how it locks the shafts together.
It doesn't lock shafts together, it just locks a clutch hub to a shaft. In effect it locks by friction - once the nut is loosened and the pin is able to slide axially as much as the half-moon cutout allows, it is no longer interfering with pulling the clutch off the shaft. The remaining problem is just rust and/or hardened crud that has built up between the shaft and the hub, obstructing sliding. It is desirable to soften the rust or crud rather than use sheer force to pull them apart, because the latter might damage something. The traditional treatment for your problem is to squirt a penetrating agent onto the junction between shaft and hub, wait the appropriate amount of time (hours, maybe a day) then wiggle the hub both rotationally and axially for as long as it takes. You said earlier that you are getting a couple of millimetres of movement of the hub on the crankshaft, axially. If you have movement, you can get it off without massive force, provided you soften the rust/crud first. The traditional penetrating substance to use is called Penetrene, and you can get it from Repco (and probably other places as well). Cheaper alternatives like WD40 might work also - my own successes have been with Penetrene, and I haven't had any success with WD40, which is mainly intended for a different purpose. Just get the penetrant into the joint, then wait as long as possible (I've been known to soak a joint for a week, warming it to about 100 Celsius from time to time, but that project ultimately failed anyway - it was thoroughly bonded together). After that is the hard part: the wiggling and twisting, without applying heavy forces because that tends to jam things up. As long as you have movement between the parts, keep wiggling. The wiggle-room will gradually increase. When the parts are bonded together (no wiggle movement at all) you use a different process, which I won't go into here.
Thought that I'd get back to everyone and let you know how things went. After 15 minutes gentle persuasion with a soft mallet, I got the clutch off. Part of the problem might have been that the keyway had a section that was fractured. Anyway, clutch is off now and all thats left to do now is contemplate if this is enough of a reason for me to update to a Honda GX100.
That crankshaft is finished. You need to replace the crankshaft or replace the engine. My first question would be directed to Deejay, and I'd ask him whether there is any difference between SB45s fitted with Tecumseh and B&S engines. If there is no difference, you could fit an old Briggs 60102 and have an original engine that happens, as a bonus, to be incomparably better than that woeful Tecumseh. (I had a Tecumseh of that vintage for a long time, and built up a strong dislike.) If the Briggs engine would be considered non-genuine by the purists, you'd have to choose between getting another Tecumseh from a wrecked mower, or abandoning originality. I suspect you'd still end up with a 60102 - I don't see the Honda having any advantages, if the rumours of loss of quality in recent times are accurate.
Thanks for the heads-up Tezza, I will check them out.
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
Hi stu45 and grumpy, as far as I know there is no difference in the engine mountings for either the Kirby/Lauson/Tecumseh or the Briggs...though Briggs used a 2.5HP on the 14" and 17" mowers and the 3HP on the 20" mower. The clutch assy on all models is identical. The only chassis difference is that the early Model 45's had a solid engine deck and the later models had the twin rail decking. The engine mounting position was also common to all models.
Re: the Honda G100... it has been replaced in the Honda line-up by a new design and unfortunately probably manufactured somewhere in Asia and not in Japan. However....some dealers (Honda Power Equipment)may have one or two in stock and these are the more desirable engines. grumpy prefers the older Briggs engines possibly for originality in the restoration....I chose Honda for functionality .....one pull starting, the spark plug has never had cause for removal in over 7 years of regular use....it's just a great little performer.
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
That's a great summary Deejay. Also, the early Briggs 60102 is only 2 hp, which may be a bit low. As you said, it is a choice between originality and functionality, provided any Honda that is fitted has the traditional Honda quality rather than something less.
Hi guys, intersting reading as I have had a Diplomat (some say ugh!)for 20 years+ (acutlaly I had 2 andade one good? one out of the two and have some spares)and a 45 for the last 12 months off ebay. I have parts explosion and some portions of the manual for the Diplomat from SB/Rover from way back, but I have NOTHING on the 45. From where do I download the manual? I need to make soem repairs and get it running and cutting like new. Thanks. PG
PS if anyone has an electronic manual pdf etc and would like to PM me I can be reached on phantomguy@bigfoot.com. Many many thanks.
PG My Mowers: SB Model 45: 17",3hp, Model No:21339, B&S Model 80202, type 1735-01, Code 82111901 SB Model Diplomat 430: 17", 3hp Model No:1414, B&S Model 80202, type 0880-01, Code 79110101
Thanks Bruce. AND Thanks for warm welcome Deejay in topic thread "Restoring Scott Bonnar 45, 14inch" onto which I seem to have posated in error. Will post pics later. For time being have listed my both mower details under my signature. As for paying for manual. I don't mind but I have never paid anything on line (eg credit card) and am not keen to start now given that i suffered a huige fraud some years back and still worried due to the horror stories I keep hearing. Some other way to pay for the sub cost? _________________________ PG My Mowers: SB Model 45: 17",3hp, Model No:21339, B&S Model 80202, type 1735-01, Code 82111901 SB Model Diplomat: 17", 3hp Model No:1414, B&S Model 80202, type 0880-01, Code 79110101
PG My Mowers: SB Model 45: 17",3hp, Model No:21339, B&S Model 80202, type 1735-01, Code 82111901 SB Model Diplomat 430: 17", 3hp Model No:1414, B&S Model 80202, type 0880-01, Code 79110101
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