OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums General Discussion Forum Off Topics The Right to Repair

Interesting info on the right to repair in America, might also help the environment as well.

http://ifixit.org/blog/8748/right-to-repair/

This garbage has been going on in the Automotive industry for years and it's about time some of these organisations were taken to task and made information readily available and parts far more affordable.

But just remember that we are always around 10 years behind the States.

Cheers,
BB.

I was told that there enough stuff out there to fulfill our needs for the next fifty or so years if we suddenly halted manufacturing.
In this age of supposedly being environmentally conscious, we have become more conditioned than ever to throw away perfectly functional items just for the sake of having the latest thing as well as items that have the simplest problem to get going again.
Can we really count solely on many manufacturer's claims that almost every part is recyclable material?
Microwave ovens are a classic example. There are many examples of thirty year old microwaves out there, still giving sterling service while consumers can expect a life of 2 years of they are lucky.
This is exactly the situation we had with a Samsung we bought three years ago. It gave up the ghost in about that time.
Did I go out and spend $200 on another after this experience?
I replaced it with a 15 year old Panasonic Genius
I found on the kerb out side a block off units that continues to work like a Swiss watch.

Hi Mowerfreak,

Your first mistake was purchasing something with the name "Samsung" on it.

and the second issue is being married to the opposite sex who are generally fashion driven, not that I'm suggesting you get married to a man by any means. It's normally women who are so wrapped up with fashion over practicality that's why the rag trade was always aiming at them opposed to men. Lets get one thing clear, there are also men out there that are driven the same way, especially the ones that come home in a penguin suite.

Cheers,
BB.

I could use the manuals though many of them are not that good even for the dealers. I have snagged a few through my connections with other techs. Even just access to the ipls and wiring diagrams would help in most cases for me. Of course we all know how Chinese stuff is sent out with no parts support at all. It is surprising that we even fix some them.

There many good repair techs that just need a little help every once a while as what the layout is as some customer has taken it upon themselves to do a repair and get in the middle, box it up, and take it to a shop. I had one customer that brought in his riding mower in to my shop in several boxes. A real cheap skate as he even complained about the cost when I only charge 50 usd for 2 days of work to put it back together in working order because I felt sorry for him; not any more of this.

As for microwaves the new invertor systems do tend fry themselves rather quickly. And old ones much more robust. I actually made quite a bit off recycling the old units as I was getting up 5 pounds of copper out of the transformers when it was around 4 usd per pound. Beside those transformers at one time when vacuum tubes were still around plentiful made great power supplies for the high voltage supply in RF linears amps.

My current mic is a roadside unit too. It only had a bad fuse. Once replaced it has working for the last 3 yrs, just wish the clock didn't need reseting every time the power flickers here. This is probably why I am using a windup 31 day grandfather clock.

I have a mate who is an auto electrician and for many years he worked out of a ute doing mobile work mostly at car yards doing whatever was needed and often he would get stuck with a problem needing some code or something that the manufacturer or selected dealers had access to. He was able to get cheat sheets of codes from the internet but it always made solving the problems much harder. He has recently given up on the mobile work, gone back to working in a shop and leaving his boss to sort out how to get the info the manufacturers make so hard to get

Definitely agree with that. It is only possible to get these through the net whenever someone takes the time to workup a cheat sheet or sneak a copy out.

I have tried to develop my own Briggs Nikki carburetor sheet that compares their jets part numbers to their jet size. No one seems to want take the time to even look at the jets they are using/installling and post me the sizes and the part number that they were purchased under. Reason was/is to make re-jetting easier when only need a size or two larger is needed to correct a lean burn issue. It would be a lot easier to just swap jets than hand resizing them. My problem is that I don't work on enough different engines to get the variety I need to make the list usable. So far I only have 7 known sizes listed.

Of course Briggs won't just sell the o-rings but insist on the tech buying new jets. Something else I looked into was buying o-rings from a different source but I don't need $400 worth of the them sitting on the shelf unused. I even tried talking my fellow forum member here into pooling our needs where it would have been reasonable for me to purchase the volume; no takers.

G'day fellow grumpy old men

That's a great link Norm!

I can't say I understand the modern world. It seems to be a flea market
of double standards, contradictions, 'alternate facts', and hypocrisy.

For me, it is the desire to repair and service.
In Australia, HP, have been caught out more than once...
[also note the new connection between HP and Samsung]

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/hp-to-pay-3-million-for-misleading-consumers-and-retailers
http://www.channelnews.com.au/hp-printers-nobbled-to-only-use-expensive-ink-cartridges/

All very manipulative.
-----------------------------
Jack

I once tried after market cartridges for my Canon printer and it left fine streaks on my printed photos, so I went back to the original ones. The price of genuine ink has come down a little over time as newer models have arrived.
I do think ink jet printer are an obvious scam to get you to spend money to keep on to of ever depleting ink supplies that must cost them a fraction to produce. The cost of the printer itself is almost a minor consideration next to the cartridges!

off topic a bit,my company has a large fleet of renault vans and there is no part's for them in the country so when something is needed it has to come from france!!3 week wait so far for lumbar support repair!

Morning all,

This thread is an interesting read. I maintain 40 and 50 year old machinery for a living. Parts and information and manufacturer support is there and so it's quite do-able. In fact in my game is very cost effective compared to the cost an equivalent new machine.

That leads me to my two cents on this one. Assuming we get 'right to repair' the single biggest issue will be the cost of labour. I too have old household appliances and spend my own time keeping them alive. Doing this is cost effective as we all know but if we have to pay for the labour at say, $100 an hour (which is a good rough figure) suddenly it's marginal, or often not worth repairing. This ,of course, is the battle small motor and appliance repair places have every day. And it's what killed the TV repair game. Sure over the top parts pricing and data access made it more difficult but fundamentally it's about the money gap between the cost of repair (labour included) and the cost of new.

P.S. Got visions in my head of gml getting around with a baguette stuffed behind his back as a temporary fix for the lumbar support, waving a cheery 'bonjour' to passers by

gml, my Son in NZ was looking at replacing their fleet of L300 vans (45 of them) with the Renault vans but the first thing he looked at was spare/replacement parts availability and he was told about 3 weeks, instantly the decision was forget it and he went with Hyundai

Hi Norm,

Have you seen the price of Hyundai parts at all ???

The vehicles are cheap but their parts are outrageous !!!

G'day all,
Yes, a lively conversation here ...

Yes Mowerfreak, couldn't agree more. The two issues here are
[1] After-Market suppliers of parts or consumables are a mixed bag,
and the bad ones have given that industry a poor reputation.
Any after-market product should be as good as the original.
[2] Many manufacturers design products with the deliberate intention
to defeat copying, or detection. I understand the giant Volkswagen
maker will pay heavily for that practice.

A great and true anecdote there prd. It is often said that
labour costs are the real cause of obsolescence. Whilst I think
there is a truth in that, I'm not convinced it is the cause.

Good design for service, and a realistic pricing policy for parts
and consumables is the way forward. If we can produce products in countries
with high labour rates, then we should be able to service the same products
at equivalent labour rates. That's a personal view reflecting the complexity
of this issue - repair or replace.

PRD, I must say the imagery did appeal to my senses.
The issue is, though, the ridiculous price of baguettes in this country ...
Who's making the dough here!

Au Revoir
---------------
Jack

I loved BB's observation:-
"Have you seen the price of Hyundai parts at all ???
The vehicles are cheap but their parts are outrageous !!!"

I guess just another example if ink-jet mentality.

Bonjour mon compagnon repairers,

All of the above. Manufacturers would have to be committed to repair. Parts pricing, parts availability, service turnaround times, the whole bit. Just can't see it happening.

As an extreme example why not, Google 'Charles Ware Morris Minor Centre'. Charles Ware was an eccentric chap who grew a not bad business in the UK over the last few decades by arguing very strongly for 'durable motoring'. His thesis was that if you have a simple, reliable robust car then it can be kept maintained almost indefinitely thus allowing the owner to purchase and keep a vehicle for a fraction of buying and maintaining less robust modern machines. The company still exists (now run by his son) and they still look after a lot of daily drives!

The point is, manufacturers aren't going to cop that. They are not going to encourage us to keep their products almost indefinitely! But perhaps we can find some sensible middle ground? Alas, I think not.

Jack's comment about design for service is an excellent point. I am ashamed to admit that I have a dish drawer. Don't ever buy one! But it's one redeeming feature is that everything just clicks into place with quarter turn bayonet style fittings. Makes for very easy disassembly and repair. Sure it was really designed for easy manufacture but it cuts both ways.

I'm going to stick to my guns here. I think labour cost is the limiting factor at least as far as the bottom end of the market is concerned and that's where the waste is. It's impossible to justify the repair of a $300 mower from Bunnings, a $150 weed eater from big w or a $40 microwave from k mart. While this low end stuff is sold repair will not be viable if not done DIY. The only hope is consumer education over a lengthy period. But alas the manufacturers control the media and therefore the minds and purses of the automaton consumer.

Poor choice by the consumer and the purchase of cheap appliances 'baguettes' waste.

Hi All,

I'm also gonna stick with my rifles too !

By the time most items break or fail the fashion trends have changed and "most" don't want to be seen not keeping up with the Jones' and Brown's so to speak, only the people who are interested in old Monaro's will want to own them and be seen in them also, thus the repair industry is on a self destruct path.

Man I can't get my head around what HQ Holden's are fetching now when 15 years ago you couldn't dig a hole big enough to bury the 467 thousand odd units General Motors made around the various assembly plants.

Cheers,
BB.

vous etes droles merci beaucoup

g'day Norm, my boss gets 5.6+ mill a year! he don't care how long my van is off the road

When I was working at a Case IH tractor dealership, every time the diagnostic computer is plugged in to a tractor it charges a $50 fee to the dealership's account in order to connect to the Case IH & New Holland (CNH) online server.

Access to the diagnostic server is exclusive to the dealership and this means software updates and certain programming functions cannot be done outside of the dealership.

However, the Case IH & New Holland tractors do have a built in diagnostic system that can be accessed by anyone who knows the trick to enable it without having to go to a dealer to read and clear the fault codes.

Once the diagnostic function is activated, it comes up on the digital instrument display. However, you do need the factory workshop manual to know which buttons need pressing for how long and in what sequence.

This is also worth reading: John Deere Ownership

At the end of the day or is about funneling more cash toward themselves. Companies have to be reigned in lest they imprison the consumer with their products.

Hi all ...
a great conversation about this. If nothing more, it's therapeutic.

Of course PRD speaks wisely.
The low end of the market is ... as it is - governed by economics;
as I guess, nowadays, any other end is.

I wish we lived in simpler times - when pride in work was a factor, and
quality products could be repaired to last a life time.

I accept the problem is with US.

I guess Mowerfreak's Deere link is another example of the farrago of nonsense
we live in today.

--------------------------
Jack

Sorry gml, I forgot your boss doesn't have to justify his job or how the money is spent, doesn't sound like he is hard up for a quid and your vehicle problems probably don't go across his desk.
Yesterday I pulled my air conditioner out of the wall because the fan had begun hitting something. 2 of the rubber mounts had started to fail, quick repair with a couple of Victa height adjuster springs and it is back in service. This air con unit is one that was built to last, I bought it in 1975 and it is still going strong

morning Norm,it's great to be amongst other's who repair rather than throw,i did a similar thing with the rangehood the other day,cheer's(we cant get $50 out of boss for our bbq)

I found a a Volta vacuum in good looking condition on the kerb with its accessories only to find some numbnut had cut nearly all the retractable cord away.
There was just enough of a stub left to test the machine out with another plug and it worked.
So I harvested another cord from an Electrolux with a stuffed motor I had decided to keep and after careful soldering and the use of strong shrink I got from Jaycar, it's now the household vacuum with Electrolux famous suction and is very manoeuvrable with made in Australia prominently printed on the machine.

G'day folks,
Great find, Norm! Wish we had something like the club setup, that some Southland Kiwis have for vintage car bits, for OPE stuff: http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/cus...its-the-great-big-vintage-car-parts-shed

Yer, and Samsung were already on that path some years ago.

My motorcycle mechanic bought a fairly exy Samsung all-bells-and-whistles combo scanner/colour laser printer/copier unit. About 3 years into ownership IIRC, it just locked up one day, and wouldn't do anything but display error messages saying it needed servicing. When he made enquiries, he was told 'yep, it's programmed to do that on an elapsed time/number of pages basis - whichever occurs first'. To add insult to injury, it couldn't be serviced by the local mob - it had to go to Melbourne at his expense to be fixed, including all new toner cartridges, even if he fitted a new set before sending it down!

Dunno if he ever took it up with Consumer Affairs/ACCC, but I reckon he would have had a good case on a 'not fit for purpose/not merchantable quality' basis, as the service and freight costs were going to exceed what it cost new. Bastards!

On the planned obsolescence front, as BB says, the automotive industry was the first in the 'durable goods' sector to go this way. In the US, this really took off in the 1950's. If anyone's interested in reading how it came about, a US writer by the name of Vance Packard [appropriate surname there ] wrote a book in 1960 titled 'The Waste Makers' that's still well worth tracking down.

Even the Nobel Prize winning author John Steinbeck commented on the loss of durability of US passenger cars, in his 1962 book 'Travels with Charley'. He planned a freewheeling solo [with companion dog, though] tour around the US, to get to know his own country again, so he bought a 3/4 ton utility to fit with a slide-on camper.

In the course of the trip, he had cause to note the way that light trucks were still very much built to last then - he said:


A commercial traveller Vance Packard knew had a similar experience - he wanted a new car, but wasn't at all impressed with the offerings of the major manufacturers, and the experiences he'd previously had with their maintenance costs. At that time [and up to 1982 in fact], there was one independent US car maker who specifically targeted the taxicab market, so their products really were built for maximum passenger/driver comfort, durability, manoeuvrability, and easy repair. Therefore he bought one of their Superba models, and was very happy with it. The company's potted history; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checker_Motors_Corporation

We've largely continued on a downhill path since then...

Evening all,

On the subject of the time limit software on the printer, I've heard it said (though haven't personally experienced it) that some modern Makita (and probably other brands) cordless drill will act up after a certain lifespan due to smarts in the battery pak. Can anyone confirm this?

The idea of durable vehicles is compelling to many of the readers here and for one I'm completely up for it but there is one massive pitfall. BB mentioned it earlier. While there are people like my wife around it'll never happen. Let's call it 'shiny factor'!.......

Ooohhhh, look at your new car! It's got a reversing camera! And oooohhhh, I looove the new colour. Has yours got the bluetooth curling iron and the automatic makeup mirror focus? Ours has! And does yours have the automatic retina scan to adjust the seat height!?

Manufacturers don't have to be shifty and clever to sell new products when the average consumer (read sucker!) happily falls for this as justification to buy a nu thang or be conned into an upsell so they can have even more goodies! Sadly repairability or durability (in motor vehicles especially) is only one of the problems......

Yup, it's like that Jack. Fortunately my wife's only like this when it comes to cars. Other stuff round the house is allowed to get old and die naturally. I pity those who's other half have to have new everythings!

When I say the stuff in our house can grow old gracefully I'm literally including the furniture. That, I guess, is another angle on this discussion. Old (perhaps restored) or quality built new stuff Vs Fantastic furniture and Hardly Normal. We've got both old (antique?)and quality new including some stuff from a local cabinet maker who made new stuff the old way

Cheers,

My theory about all the home invasions that are happening around Melb these days is not to have big flashy stuff or anything worth pinching. The stuff we have here all functions, does what it is supposed to do but to a thief not worth the effort. Most of the tools in my shed are old and have worked hard, but once again tools were once expensive, now they are cheap so the desire to steal is not there. The tools that do get stolen are usually from a tradie who has a ute full of the latest battery powered gear. Our cars are 10 year old Hyundais, hardly an interest for car jackers