OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions On Tecumseh / Kirby Engines Tecumseh Starters - Roll Pin Removal

Hey Guys,

I am having a bit of trouble with a couple of Tecumseh starters with roll pins. I must have been lucky previously as I normally sit a socket underneath the starter and generally work my way around the pin with a standard punch to remove it. Re-roping the starter is simple so I don�t need help with that.

I know have 2 tecumseh starters and for the life of my I cant remove the roll pins. I have tried everything and I think it might be time to invest in a set of roll pin punches. Trouble is I have been quotes $80 for a set of 10 at Repco. They are the only people I can find that actually knew what they were and have them in stock.

Do I need to invest in the punches to make things easy or does anyone have a suggestion.

I searched ebay as well. No luck when it comes to getting a set at a reasonable price.

Thanks

Jaffa

If we need photo�s ill put them up tonight but I think most guys will know what I am talking about.

To just do the job once, you don't need a proper pin punch if you have the right facilities. Find a piece of hard wire, such as silver-steel, the same diameter as the roll pin, grind the end flat and square, cut it off at a length of about 30 mm, and use it to punch out the pin. If you've got an ordinary barbeque gas torch, and you have a coil spring made from the right diameter wire, just anneal the spring, straighten the wire, cut it to length, and re-harden it. You anneal it by heating it to bright red then cooling it slowly by gradually moving the torch away. To re-harden it you heat it bright red, drop it into a cup of water, then temper it by heating it just a bit so you can see the blue oxide form on the outside, but it doesn't get even slightly red. Remember, always wear safety glasses when you use a home-made pin-punch, because if you have left it a bit too hard, it may fracture when you hit it.

Peter, i normally use a 1/4 drive socket that's the same diameter as the roll pin. They do have quite a large daimeter, about 9-10mm. i use that socket to drive out the roll pin.

Right thanks for the pointers.
Theo, thats exactly how I tried to remove the last couple of roll pins and they just wont budge whatsoever.
From what I read the only way to remove the stubborn pins without damaging the starter is by using a properly fitted pin punch.
I think I might have to bite the bullet and buy me a set as tecumseh's are rolling though my shed quite often now.

I have to begin by saying if you are having trouble driving a pin out, it nearly aways means you are not supporting the housing rigidly enough, or you are not using the right punch.

If you are going to be doing the job regularly, the right way to do it is to get the right tools. Begin by determining the actual diameter of the pin you are trying to punch. If this is a made-in-USA Tecumseh, it will be inch size. Later Tecumsehs were mostly rebranded Italian engines, and will be metric size. In general a punch marginally smaller than the pin has advantages: it supports the pin as it is being driven out, and you can use it as an aid to reassembly as well as disassembly: you let the roll pin push the pin punch out of the hole, as you drive the pin in.

Now, in selecting the product, brand and supplier, the first point to remember is that you need parallel punches, not tapered ones. Tapered ones have few uses, and certainly don't suit your current purpose. The second point is, buy decent tools that will last as well as possible, and have as flexible an application as possible. That means choose chrome vanadium alloy. It also means make sure the round, parallel section of the punch is a sensible length: at least as long as the pins you plan to drive.

Here is an example of a set of punches that is well-priced but may not extend to a large enough size to suit your needs:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm//201074112084?pi=466130

Here is a second-hand set that may be pretty much what you want:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mechanic...?pt=AU_HandTools&hash=item2341428b0b

Here is a set that seems to be properly made but seems to be plain carbon steel rather than Cr-V steel, which implies a shorter life and much less tolerance of abuse:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6PC-HEAV...pt=AU_Hand_Tools&hash=item53ed5c3960

I'm not recommending any of these products, I'm just explaining how I go about sourcing such things. You will notice that I've focused on items that are already in Australia, because if you import an item, it has a standard delay of 2 weeks in Australian Customs, so it takes 3 weeks to reach you.

Grumpy, I think that Jaffa is already on the right page here, as far as the correct tool for the job goes.

'Roll pin punches' are a parallel pin punch, with a specially machined tip. Rather than being flat, the centre is raised, in a ball or truncated cone shape, to centre the punch in the hollow pin, and prevent sideways slippage. They're not a very common tool, but they are available.

Jaffa, Snap-On Tools do sell single Imperial size roll pin punches. But as you may know, Snap-On ain't cheap, though their quality is good. Their Oz online shop quotes $22.85 for the 3/8" size, Product Code PPR12. No idea what they want for delivery. There will be a franchisee who services motor trade workshops in your area, though.

A possible alternative is the T&E Tools range, which is probably what Repco is offering. No idea about the quality of these. A Google will find some local retailers; one online shop [sostools] I found offers both sets and single punches for good prices.

If you know someone who has a lathe, as grumpy says, these punches aren't hard to make. The 'silver steel' he mentions is a precision ground hardenable alloy steel rod, available from industrial tool and bearing suppliers. The Yanks call it 'drill rod'.

Another cheap, ready source of decent tool steel is old car shocker/strut piston rods. These are made from 'AISI O1' steel, and harden well if heated to bright red and quenched in oil [this avoids excessive hardness] after machining. The hard chrome plating can be ground off, or machined off with carbide tooling.

Thanks Gadge, I've never heard of special-purpose roll pin punches. I'm inclined to wonder if they will work better than plain pin punches: I can see both advantages and disadvantages.

Grumpy,
Yes, they do tend to work a lot better on really stubborn roll pins, as they don't wander off course, and damage the surrounds. That said, I still reckon roll pins are buggers of things.

I haven't had a whole lot of experience with roll pins, but when I have encountered them, more often than not I've ended up irritated. They just about always damage the hole they are in, both on insertion and removal, and after they've been dismantled a few times the hole is unusable and there is nothing for it but to either fit a larger pin, or change the design so there is no roll pin involved. So far I've always chosen the latter solution.

There is a small sidchrome pin punch set on ebay up for auction , item number 351179816075 and you could send message on sizes if interested.

Well this has turned into an interesting thread.

Gadge the way you described the roll pin punch is spot on. I ended up parting with a few dollars and the pins where easily removed. I suspect a pin punch unlike a roll pin punch would not be as easy to use given the likely hood of the punch running off course and damaging the starter housing. Similar to the process of using a general socket.

Now I replaced the rope and re-wound the starter and all was well until I put the spring, 2 washers and roll pin back in its place. The pawls just wont throw out no matter what I do. If however I put a little bit of pressure on the housing the covers the pawls they come in and retract exactly as they should. I have repaired quite a few housings and have never encountered this problem before.

If I hit the roll pin in to far it locks up the starter rope.

I was thinking I might have damaged the starter in some way but I cant see any reason why the pawls wont throw out.

I would dearly love some assistance as I was getting a little frustrated on the weekend.

Thanks

Peter

I haven't got a solution for you with your stuck starter Jaffa, but I can only share that I have had the same symptoms with the other style of Tecumseh starter.
The type where the forked piece of plastic comes through the centre and a plastic wedge holds it from the other side.
I solved that one by shortening the length of the wedge by squashing it a bit.
Once reassembled.
This then gave clearance again, so the pawls could throw out.

Jaffa, it sounds like you haven't got the bits in quite the right order there.

Friction between the spindle/washers and the pawl cover is usually the critical factor for this type of starter; it has to be sufficient to get the pawls to poke out when the pulley is rotated. And there are bits that should not be lubed in there.

Look for an exploded parts diagram for your starter, on one of the US sites like http://www.epartsnow.com or http://www.partstree.com

The advent of the digital camera age has been a great help with this sort of issue; it makes it so easy to take pics as you pull something apart. Even if you have to keep a plastic bag handy to use as a glove, to protect the camera from gunge.

knuckes grazed, I was a bit lazy on the last post. I actually do take photos of a lot of things I fix and I have included one below. This is the order the roll pin and springs came out.

Been so busy fixing other mowers, havent gotten back to this one yet.

Look forward to any comments. Tonight I will check the links you provided so thanks for that.Note the roll pin in the photo is slightly damaged. The top washer seemed like normal washer. I am assuming in this case the friction washer might be warn causing the pawls not to throw out.

I haven't pulled one of these apart as yet, but I had one here where the cord wouldn't retract fully, I tapped the centre pin back a bit and it works fine now.
Here are some instructions for the starter, they may help.

Thanks for the tips. I searched the model and couldnt find the starter via Parts Tree but I found a very similar one which confirms the position of the second washer similar to the advice provided by mark.

Can anybody confirm if the washer that goes under the retainer is a special type. Gagde I think you mentioned it was a friction washer. I just want to make sure I havent got things mixed up. I have a feeling the friction washer is so warn the starter wont engage.

Lastly does anybody know the best place to purchase friction washers, if thats in fact what they are.

Thanks
Peter

Peter, I searched Tecumseh recoil starter repair kit.
The link below has some good info, you could even flick this supplier an email.
The images here say they are nylon washers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-old-sto..._DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c78128c3

Jaffa, what's the engine model number?

As mark's diagram shows, the wide end of the brake spring should bear directly against the retainer [aka dog plate].
Plastic/nylon washers belong in two places. That is, between the retainer plate and pulley, and sometimes between the pulley and housing as well.

Definitely not against either end of the brake spring. That should have metal against both ends.
As its name implies, that's there to provide drag on the retainer, so that it spins slower than the pulley, when the cord is pulled. The lugs on the retainer will then push the pawls/dogs outwards, if the retainer is correctly installed.

Guys thanks very much for all the pointers and links to the parts diagrams.

A warm Nylon washer was the culprit. I have included some photo's of the finished product along with the roll pin punches I purchased. They were a little expensive but they make it really easy to get stubborn roll pins out. I am sure they will come in handy for other jobs as well.

This Tecumseh again turned out really well. The engine starts from 1 pull cold like a well tuned engine should. I had to move it to a new base as the old base was rusted out.

I took it for a run today and it has plenty of power and will be good for another few years mowing!

Hi Jaffa J,
Many thanks for reporting back, so glad you got it all sorted.
This thread is an important archive, on roll pin removal and the tools to do so.