OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Restoring, Customising and Modifying Engines Magneto Repairs on Villiers 412 required ?

Hi Guys,

"Happy Learnt How to Putt !"




Well I didn't have three long enough correct threaded bolts to attempt pressing off the washer so I have used DJ's method using a pin punch and aligned the holes in the ally cover with the holes in the flywheel and then started tapping gently around each hole until it came off. So finally that part is over and done with and now I'll assemble it all back together and time it correctly without the cover plate and see what spark I end up with. The only thing that could now be an issue is either the condenser or the coil itself if I have no luck with it correctly set up.

I'll keep posting on this topic as I think that a few of you are quite interested in seeing this Villiers fire back up again, but once this part of the project finishes I will revert back to the "Question on 18" Supercut" thread under the "Question on Scott Bonnar Cylinder Mowers" Sub heading.

Again thanks to all for your input as this forum is simply the best for all us true enthusiasts.

Cheers,
BB.

Yay! Press fit over the cam nut and the circlip underneath!...Good on ya mate! Im betting Your spark will be fine since the electrics were so corroded. Id say since you cleaned the points and flywheel/coil faces it will be nice and strong,just think positive,and cross that bridge if they are no good:). And Yeah for sure I want to here how she runs. And definately this forum is invaluable,as four contributing heads are better than ONE!

I'm going to pull out the internal circlip and release the imprisoned nut, but only to completely clean all the corrosion away and coat it in lubricate as if ones going to do it you might as well do it properly.
BTW Blue, do you actually own a HT GTS ? as I've built a concourse HG (original restored category) but in Premier format, both variants 186 manual in Vedoro Green Mk II and 253 T Bar in Burnished Bronze.

Cheers,
BB.

Hi BB,
So glad to see my method worked for you and you finally got it off!
I'm sure with your attention to detail you'll set the points and get a good spark mate, I, for one can't wait to see a vid of it running!

Well its all together but still a very weak spark, in actual fact no spark at all as I can spin the flywheel and hold the HT lead in my left fingers and get a erratic electrical buzz that's so weak that I can easily hang on to it. I've also found that moving the HT lead around makes the slight buzz in my fingers intermittent so I'm starting to feel that I've got an issue with the HT lead from the coil, now how to replace that is definitely not my speciality as I've never replaced a fixed lead at all, just removable ones.

As far as testing the various components eg. Coil and Condenser I have no idea. I've use a multimeter meter just as a basic test to check resistance and the two coil terminals give a very very low reading but pretty [Censored] close to no resistance and all the other wiring also comes up pretty well zip. Taking into consideration I'm using a digital unit will give the slightest of readings which are negligible.

So I guess here's the next challenge. I know it's frustrating but that's what makes it all worth while I guess in the end.

Cheers,
BB.

BB, because you think it is sensitive to HT lead positions, it sounds as if the next step is to measure the resistance from the HT terminal (spark plug connection) to both ends of the primary winding. It should be around a couple of thousand Ohms, and it shouldn't change at all when you wave the HT lead around. If it changes from 2k Ohms to much more than that, the HT lead is a goner.

If the HT lead is OK, there are two plausible explanations left. The first and more likely one is that the capacitor (condenser) is breaking down. The second plausible problem is secondary insulation breakdown, which is relatively difficult to test for, though repairers often apply some kind of test to detect it. I haven't actually seen the test.

An old ignition scope would find the explanation in a flash if you spun the crankshaft with a drill, but I think they fell out of favour several decades ago. A pity - one of them baled me out of a mess in deepest Louisiana once when my Camaro developed the stumbles whilst on a 2 week road trip. Less than 60 seconds to find that the highly inaccessible points in the 327's window distributor were all burned up, and he replaced them in about 3 minutes more. Those were the days. $12.50 all up, including the new points.

Hi Grumpy,

Thanks for that. I shall check the resistance tomorrow as its too late today and I've packed everything up for now as I need my ute in the morning. I've been using it as my temporary workbench for the past week, honestly they are great to work around if you've got a solid rubber mat in the tray and all the sides dropped down.

Anyway thanks for those procedures and I'll report back as soon as I've discovered what the case is.

Cheers,
BB

Hi Grumpy,

Well I tested the circuit and it came out at about 1.5K Ohms with no fluctuation when moving the HT lead. One thing that I have noticed is that the more I spin the crank around the stronger the spark is getting and now I'm starting to get a visible spark at the plug tip. Does this mean that the capacitor is slowly starting to store power as caps normally get run down over time as they do in audio equipment.

Your thoughts,

Cheers,
BB

I don't think it is very likely that the capacitor is improving, BB - it is completely charged and discharged every time it throws (or tries to throw) a spark.

Did you carefully clean the surfaces of the points after you filed them? If you left any powder or oily stuff on the contact surfaces, you'd get pretty much what you are getting. I tend to pull a piece of thin, very fine abrasive paper back and forth between them to remove the burned metal, then I pull a piece of soft cotton cloth back and forth to remove the residue. The problem with filing is that usually the surfaces don't end up parallel to each other. I can remember when I was a teenager, filing a set of points and ending up with no spark at all. When I looked at them with a magnifying glass on the bench, I found that the two points were not parallel, and there was a thin grey line where their edges touched. Once I got them back to parallel to each other, they worked perfectly.

Hi Grumpy,

I have used exactly the same method you have used and that is 400 wet and dry folded so as to resurface both sides at the same time, I'm going to use a magnifying glass and have a very good look at them and see what's happening but it very much makes sense what you mentioned about parallel surfaces.
I am just wondering if new points are still available as I'm sure that there wouldn't be that much call which would not justify them being still manufactured in todays age of the more modern stationary engine.

Anyway I'll have a better look over the weekend and report back.

Thanks again Grumpy.

Cheers,
BB.

I prefer to use a single thickness of abrasive paper, and turn it over after I've done one contact surface. Doubling it increases the angle between the two contact surfaces after the job is done. You might try measuring the resistance between the points when they are closed: it should be a very small fraction of an Ohm.

Replacing the points, unless they are rather beaten-up, is a considerable expense that should be unnecessary IMO. Once they meet squarely and have clean surfaces, the next concern is the condenser. In my experience condensers fail far more often than coils, and of course are much cheaper to replace.

Just one point: are you really sure the points open just as the magnet is close to departing from the coil?

Hi Grumpy,

I will use a single piece and do it the way you've suggested. I took particular notice of the position of the magnets when doing the timing and noticed that they were just on the outgoing position when the points were opening. I must admit that I'm starting to suspect the condenser more than anything else but finding the exact right one to fit is going to be a bit of an achievement I feel. The one I have is still the original one I'd say as it has the name Villiers embossed on it as do the points assembly.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to look at it today as I have another electrical issue to solve with my Hilux which is really odd as all the wiring is still as per original and its not a vehicle that's been mucked around with. This certainly makes it easier to find faults when you don't have to second guess what someone else may have done in the past.

Cheers,
BB.

I agree that keeping machines in original condition makes it easier to fix them years later after you've forgotten the history, BB. The condensers tend to be mostly (not all) about the same capacitance, and they all have the same voltage rating. Where they differ is in mechanical details that allow them to be mounted neatly and reliably.

(I can remember having an uncomfortable trip home from the bush after a late night rabbit-spotlighting trip once, in an old Austin A30. Joe Lucas' ignition condenser had broken its mounting tab and rattled around in his crummy distributor, so the engine only fired when the metal can around the condenser happened to be momentarily in contact with the distributor housing. I also had a Cortina that would idle but cut out as soon as you touched the throttle. The grounding wire from the distributor's points mounting plate to the distributor housing had broken: it moved when the intake manifold vacuum changed, due to the vacuum advance mechanism, and the broken wire only made contact when it had maximum vacuum advance. Gee we had fun in the days of Lucas stuff. Getting from A to B and back was always an adventure, even on the good days when the headlights didn't go out or the distributor get wet. Lucas should have been running a fun park instead of an automotive electrical business - that's where his talent was.)

Getting back to the point, however, if you have any "known good" ignition condenser that can be temporarily mounted and connected, you can see whether your Villiers then suddenly has spark. If it does, you can begin the lengthier process of getting one that fits properly.

Well I've finally had a chance to put the Villiers back together again and attempted to start it and nothing. I let it sit for about 5 hours and was walking past the machine and decided to crank the handle and see what happened........................well surprise surprise and only half half a crank it fired up and ran well for about 30 seconds and then it just died as if it ran out of fuel. Yes the fuel tap is open. I've since had another crack at it and it won't start. My guess is that it has a blocked jet as I haven't actually stripped the carby down, only externally cleaned it and the oil bath air cleaner side of things. It's about the only thing I can think of and it makes logical sense to me. I'm going to open up the carby and fully clean it and blow out all the jets and air holes etc., then give it another shot. all things going well it sounds like a strong non smoking engine that will serve the Supercut well.

Once I have it running like it should I shall make a video of it starting and running for all the helpful people to see as many of you have contributed with help and suggestions which has spurred me on to get the Villiers up and make this restoration a good example of the Scott Bonnar history as that's what this project is all about to me.

Cheers,
BB.

The Plot thickens with me stripping the carby down and finding it to be spotlessly clean inside. All parts were nevertheless removed blown out and reassembled. I have now noticed that again I have no spark as I've cranked the engine over with one hand while touching the top of the plug with no electrical pulses what so ever. So it looks like I'm going to source another condenser from John at Rustic Spares and see what prevails.

I have recently been given a 415 HOV-2 Villiers overhead valve motor which has exactly the same magneto / flywheel set up and exactly the same problem of no spark at all. I'll have to say I'm not too sure if the OHV set up makes the 415 a better engine, but regardless the 412-H2 is the one that will be the weapon of choice as it's the original engine and must remain as part of the Scott Bonnar heritage.

Cheers,
BB

Hi BB,

I really admire your perseverance at trying to preserve this piece of Scott Bonnar history.
I must admit when I possessed the same model Supercut (Petrol) I had electrical probs that I finally solved by replacing the coil, condenser and points, plus the plug lead with NOS parts, as I had no way of testing those components at that time. That fixed the prob once and for all, but I often wonder which part was the main cause.

My best wishes for a good result mate,

Hi Darryl,

I guess as I've restored two concourse HG Premiers in the original restored category some years ago now that mindset has been applied to every thing that I have a go at.
There's something about a Supercut and the design that Sid put into it which just makes me want to produce the best known surviving example. I guess as the Supercut has never been a favourite amongst restorers (and I totally understand why) spurs me on even more.
I'm in the process of getting some components from "Voljon" and we'll see how things travel after that.

Again thanks for you words of encouragement and all the help and knowledge you always provide as I know the Supercut is one of your favourites too.

Cheers,
BB

BB, the 30-seconds-then-quit outcome could just as easily have been a spark failure as a carburetion one, though after a very long period of disuse I would start with the carburetor. Unfortunately I tend to think of intermittent spark failure as more often a coil problem than a condenser one: I'm used to condensers causing hard starting and erratic running, or just no start at all and a very dull red spark if any. There does seem to be quite a possibility that you will be up for a replacement coil.

A long time ago I had a very elaborate machine on which you could mount coil, points and condenser, adjust dwell, and run the whole system up from idle speed to warp speed while observing the spark visually as well as with instruments. Unfortunately it was both heavy and bulky, and after not using it for 10 years, I dumped the whole thing on the nature strip. The surprising part was nobody grabbed it: I finished up putting it in a skip.

Hi Grumpy,

Yes I can see exactly where you are coming from and yes it does seem very much of a merry go round syndrome. I have pretty much ruled out Carby issues as it's just so clean and perfect inside the B.10.2 and especially after doing a clean out with just about nothing foreign to be found put the issue right back to electrical. If a replacement coil was available then I would simply do that but there's nothing out there to be had so eventually I might have to find someone that could do a coil refurbishment. I really just want to keep the Villiers 412 H2 that's originally fitted on the machine. Yes I can hear the rumblings saying, put a Honda on it and happy days, but that's not what this project is all about for me.

I made a promise to the previous owner that I would restore it and supply her pictures of it as the family has photos of her and her dad with the machine when she was a little tacker and I guess I want to honour that promise along with preserving one of Sid's best made machines. Call me crazy but it's as simple as that I guess.


Cheers,
BB.

I tend to agree on the coil pack being the main culprit. Youve done all your timing settings and checks so go backwards now. Tip of lead to the coil and eliminate the most basic thing first. I just finished of a villiers mk2 midg. Rebuilt the points assy completely with new insulators as it was grounding (common problem). Removed coil mounts and cleaned all the rust and crap then buffed the coil poles to shine and reassemble. Recheck spark still crappy and intermittent. Switched coil, same issue. Ok so I went to the ht lead spring pin. Seems ok from outside. Pull the pin, unscrew the spring from the ht lead, problem found. The screw had worn the lrad end and mashed the wire and basically slipped down the side of the lead touching insulator only. Simple fix cut the lead flush centred the wires with a spike and re centred the screw...bang beautuful blue spark....anyways not necessarily the same system but worth checking if the coil and points check out ok. And btw I approach everything the same way as I do my HT also, and the 7 before it:)