OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Finding and Swapping Idle Chatter New (second hand) lathe for the shed.

Hi ODK members, I thought I would put up some pics of my latest acquisition seeing how i have got plenty of time (did the back in carrying it to the trailer) well not that funny actually, any way I have been looking at quite a few of the chinese machines and doing some reserch on them and it seems quite a lot of them need something doing to them to get satisfactory results (only going by what I have found on the web) so I have not jumped in and bought one, then I seen this on Gumtree for a grand, so did some reserch on these (Hercus 260 ATM) and only found good things about them, they are used extensivly in schools and Tech colledges, Parts are still readily available and are solidly built (bloody heavy), I am a complete novice at metal work lathes and will start reading all I can now, and a couple of my mates are OK with lathes so they will give me a couple of tips as I go along, so any advise from anyone will be great also, I will mainly be doing just smaller stuff like axles and bushes etc to get started. so here it is, the first coulple are from the gumtree add. it came with a full set of tools and a spare 1/2 hp motor that does not seem to have the correct mount on it, and a lot of other lathe bits that I am yet to learn what they are for.





even the cabinet has some weight to it.




Some of the bits that came with it.




it only has a 1/4 hp motor on it at the moment, I am looking at getting a 3/4 - 1 hp 3 phase motor for it wired to run in Delta and running a VSD/VFD (variable speed/frequency devise) so it can be run on 240v and save changing gears, well that is the long term plan anyway.









this is the plate on the spare motor.




she needs a good clean up and will most likely give it a coat of paint as I am putting it back together, now were can I fit this in the shed

Looks like you got a good score there, jonesy.

It's one of the later Hercus models, with the quick change leadscrew gearbox and power crossfeed. Sometimes these have been caned a bit if they have been in school service, but they usually only require a bit of attention to the main spindle bearings and a cleanup. As you say, a solid and well-built machine.

Where you did really well is in getting 'all the fruit' in the accessories. I spy fixed and travelling steady rests, threading dial, and both drive dog and turning face plates, as well as the 4-jaw independent and tailstock chucks, among those bits!

If you haven't yet discovered it, this Aussie forum is a great resource, and has a dedicated Hercus discussion area; http://www.woodworkforums.com/f66/

A bit of company history, including a description of your model; http://www.lathes.co.uk/hercus/index.html
The main page of that site has a lot of useful reading/downloads too.

You might inspect the first 6" or so at the left (headstock) end of the leadscrew. That is the part that gets most of the wear, and if it hasn't been kept clean and lubricated each time it is used, it may show damage. Just compare it with further down the screw, to see if it looks different.

If I'm reading the leads and feeds plate correctly, it can't cut 13 threads per inch. That happens to be half-inch UNC, so it is inconvenient if I'm right.

Thanks Gadge & Grumpy, yes I was pleased with the extra "fruit" and the cutters, I did find the woodwork forums and the lathes UK sites but thanks any way, I will check out the lead screw when the back gets a bit better, I was also thinking it might be a pain in the ass when I seen it only had a plate showing metric threads, like I said I know nothing about Metal lathes, but from what I have been reading (a bit confusing) is some say it will cut imperial threads, and some say you need to buy different gears to cut imperial, so I will soldier on with my reading, the woodwork forum is the most informative site I have found so far and would like to verify before getting any gears etc for it.
Thanks again fellas.

Yep, the guys who say that you need to change some gears to cut Imperial threads are correct, as the leadscrew is 3.0mm pitch. Metric leadscrew = designed to cut metric threads, as a rule.

Like this set, to cover the full range; http://australianmetalworkinghobbyi...roduct&path=39_44&product_id=176

That gives you the actual tooth count of these gears, so see if you got any of them in the bits box.

Edit: There are some great downloads on the basics of metal lathe use [and mucho other useful/interesting metalworking stuff] at http://www.metalwebnews.com/mr.html

I'd suggest 'How to Run a Southbend Lathe' and 'Text Book of Turning' for anyone starting out. The latter describes the use of those extra bits, like the steadies etc. very well.

Most of the older lathes had change-gears as well as the quick-change gearbox. An inch leadscrew was very common on metric lathes - to cut metric threads you just had to include a 127 tooth gear in the change-gears (an inch is 25.4 mm, and 127 is half of 254). Those lathes came with a stack of about 8 or 10 change-gears, and you assembled a gear train to cut the thread you wanted. Typically there was a leads and feeds data plate attached to the lathe - here's mine:


However change-gears eventually became uncommon - they made lathes very versatile, but set-up took longer.

Thanks again guys, I have managed to get a better look at things and have checked the things you have mentioned and apart from needing a good clean up, there does not seem to be much wear on bits at all, so some pics.

Head stock end of leadscrew, then the middle and tail stock end.





thread chasing plate




better pics of the associated bits









what oil do you guys use on the tools and lathe ways etc???
got some more of the general lathe I will put up also, just some closer ones.

Your leadscrew will need to be cleaner to check its condition. This is the check I suggest you do. First, this is the bit I'm talking about:


Look closely at the sides of the thread-form, in the red circle, looking for signs of wear. Compare it with the far end of the leadscrew, which will not have been used and will not be worn at all.

For comparison, here is mine. Headstock end, which will have the most wear:


This is the right hand end, which will not have been used at all:


My lathe is 80 years old, and spent perhaps the first 5 of those years in a toolroom, so it has had some use. I do not see signs of wear or spalling on the sides of the thread, but I'm sure there will be a reasonable amount of wear, which could be assessed by filing up a piece of aluminium sheet to be a tight fit in the thread at the unused end, then it could be pushed into the used end, and its sideways free play assessed.

On a different subject, the gear on the end of the spindle, which drives the gear train to the feed and leadscrew, has been running dry for a very long time by the look of it, and has some wear. This is not important, but it shows what happens if you neglect machinery.

Thanks Grumpy,
I will check it all out when I can move it and start cleaning,
question, what oil do you use on the side case gears?
or the rest of the whole lathe for that matter?
and is it just put on with an oil can?
will CRC tac 2 adhesive lubricant be any good?
Because I dont whant to clean stuff up and just have them rust again or go and put the wrong oil on.
A lot of questions I know, as I said I am a complete novice.
I had my young bloke get some of the bits out of the trailer and have started doing the clean up of the cabinet so that the paint will be hard by the time I whant to mount the lathe on it, can anyone guess the colour

You need at least three different oils, jonesy, for different jobs.

Firstly, for the ways (longitudinal and lateral slides) and screws you need a product the Americans call "way oil", which is a medium weight oil with a sticky additive. If you had a milling machine with a vertical slide, you'd need two grades of way oil: a normal one for the horizontal slides, and a heavy one for the vertical slide. A normal way oil doesn't stay in place on a vertical surface, it very slowly moves downward, so you use the heavy oil so it will take longer to get there. I've found I can't buy less than 20 litres of way oil through the trade, and I won't live long enough to use even 5 litres, so I cheat and use chainsaw bar oil. It has the same sticky additive as way oil, but it doesn't have a couple of other super-tricky additives to keep the slides from having a sort of slip-stick motion at ultra-slow feed speeds. I frankly doubt it makes any difference unless you are using a machine that has a hydraulic feed rather than a mechanical one.

The second kind of oil you need is for the spindle bearings. You put that in and forget it literally for several decades at a time. I'm assuming your lathe uses a roller bearing at the gear end, and a white-metal journal bearing with a thrust face, at the chuck end. If so the roller bearing will use grease, and the white-metal bearing will use a medium-weight liquid oil - it's best to read the lathe's manual to find out what they specify, and stick to that. Just be sure you keep the oil level at the line on the gauge glass there usually is on the front of the headstock. There are some lathes that use tapered roller bearings at both ends of the spindle, but that is frowned upon by lathe afficionados, on the grounds that you always end up with some spindle-lift if you do that, because of thermal expansion of the spindle, which causes changes in the end-float of the tapered rollers. Simple ballraces, of course, have a lot of radial slack and are never used even on cheap lathes. Mine has the usual one-roller-and-one-whitemetal arrangement, but it's 80 years old: they were all built that way then. I have the impression the cheap Chinese lathes use two roller bearings, but I haven't looked into it.

Third, you need an oil for gears, and for miscellaneous spindles etc. Some of these tend to have grease nipples, and on lathes, a grease nipple normally means you use grease, but keep in the back of your mind that milling machines commonly have grease nipples where you are supposed to use way oil, and other types of fitting where you use grease. Don't make the mistake I made when I first bought my mill, and blow a nylon lubrication line in an extremely inconvenient location, by trying to pump grease into the wrong place. To get back to the point, I use clean new automotive grade engine oil for those miscellaneous purposes, but if you have access to the manufacturer's manual, it will tell you what make and model of oil to use, and it may well be heavier than engine oil. You can probably find out what the recommended product actually consists of, by phoning a major oil company's technical advice service, and finding out what it is and what is an available alternative.

The important things to remember are, first, use way oil on slides and screws, and don't interchange oil and grease; and second, keep the machine lubricated. Clean and oil (with way oil) the leadscrew before you use it. Always clean down the slides when you finish a job, and ensure they end up still oily. Cover the machine when you aren't using it. Then apply fresh oil to the slides before use. Be careful to keep the scroll and jaw slides oiled in the self-centering chuck, and the screws and jaw slides in an independent jaw chuck. Don't let any oilable part of the machine get neglected - it is easy to forget one or two points, like the tailstock end of the feed shaft and the leadscrew, or maybe a couple of odd shafts in the headstock gears or the gears in the apron on the front of the carriage.

Thanks very much Grumpy for the detailed info, just what I need.
I have not been able to find a free download of the manual, but might have to bite the bullet as I have seen ones on CD, I will ask around at work and see if I can get some oils off the fitters for the ways, from what I have read most use Bar oil for the same reason you do (might have to buy 20L and sell on Ebay)
I have noticed some oiling caps with flip up lids (one missing) but will get a better look at it once I start stripping and cleaning.
Thanks one again all advise taken onboard.

The caps with the flip-up lids are actually oil reservoirs. Often they have a lamp wick in them, which soaks up the oil from the reservoir and allows it to ooze into an output channel by capilliary action. I have a bunch of them on my ancient power hacksaw, at least one missing its lid, and most of them with no wick so they are just reservoirs with no slow-feed function. Good luck getting a lid for yours - but you might get some complete oilers from a junk stall in a flea-market, or on ebay. If you find a bulk supply of them, please post about it - I can't be the only one interested.

If you have any with screw-down tops, they are grease lubricators. Each time you give the top a half-turn tighter, it forces some grease into whatever is being lubricated. They work very well, but are messy to refill.

Hi Jonesy and Grumpy,

Re:Oilers etc, you may consider taking a pic of what you are looking for and send vial e-mail to John Humphries, HERE he may be able to help you.

Thanks Deejay, the items I was talking about are not the ones he lists. His oilers and grease cups are considerably bigger than the ones used on small to medium workshop machines - there may not be room for them. His oilers are also of a more elaborate type, with an adjustable built-in dripper, and can be switched on and off. They were used back in the days of the huge British stationary engines, and similar equipment. Of course, he might have the smaller, simpler types and not have listed them. It's a good contact, for sure.

This article on lathes.co.uk, on overhauling some bits of an earlier model Hercus, is an interesting read - doesn't seem to be linked from the main Hercus page there. http://www.lathes.co.uk/hercusapron/steammachine.com/hercus/index-2.html

Looks like most Hercus lathes used roller bearings both ends of the spindle.

Oh, and Hercus still refurbish these lathes, at $3k+.....

Grumpy, some of the vintage vehicle parts mobs seem to have one or two types of these small 'spring lid oilers', for specific vehicle applications [e.g. Model T Ford steering].

But this mob have quite a range; http://www.gitsmfg.com/catalog/oil-hole-covers/

Oz distributors; http://www.cebeco.com.au/products/tank-vents-and-fittings/small-tank-fittings

Blackwoods can usually get anything in the engineering sphere, but they surely know how to charge...

Thanks Gadge, with that encouragement I tried searching for Oil Cups on ebay and found plenty of Chinese ones at more or less reasonable prices. What surprised me is that they have adjustable drip oilers for much the same price:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Needle-V...arts_Accessories&hash=item5d36847c6c

Oil Caps near the bottom of the page, Here $15 for two,not much to them, but look the same.

Yes, they may be the same item. I've bought one for $6.09 including freight, but I noticed that immediately afterward the same seller increased the price to $12.18. A volatile market?

Meanwhile I've repaired the only damaged oil cup I actually had, on my power hacksaw, so I'm happy for now. Just glad I didn't pay a high price for one from an Australian or US supplier.

One of the advantages you will find in owning a Hercus lathe, is that there is an active community of owners. There is endless debate between them and the Sheraton fraternity as to whether the original or the copy is the better and more practical machine, of course. I have the impression that the Sheraton, and perhaps the earlier Hercus copies, had a white-metal bearing at the chuck end of the spindle - that might be one of the things that fell victim to cost cutting along the way. Or I could be wrong.