OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Identification of Particular Machines Victa Model 4 Automatic Specifications

You mean was there a dressed down version of the Automatic deejay? I have always been of the opinion that this is correct. There are far to many mower examples with simply an auto badge fuel taps and/or groove cover nuts that are not nor have ever been True Automatics. This is still one for speculation as no Images or records exist.

We do know that the Model 4 Plain jane DID exist as its been seen in manual images.
Note the last image jonesy has put up for THE Special" You will note is is running the Model 4 Base....But what it doesnt show is either an auto badge or Special badge. So how it was marketed no one seems to know.

So The True Auto Finished and certainly a plain version model 4 or a model 4 special existed. The model 4 Non auto and Model 5 S1 special were so close in production that they all but ran into each other. We are talking now of only a few months if not less ..

So I guess until its proven we can only say for ceratin at this point that a Model 4 "Non Automatic" Existed between The Automatics end and the Model 5 S1 Began....Is it actually a special? As yet no one can confirm 100%. So If you have a model 4 with a special badge and it has a serial before approx 180,000 then chances are it is accurate as its run is so close to the model 5. the same would apply if you had a model 4 with and auto badge that also had a serial of up to 180,000 again because this is when the Model 5 S1 started so it would definately have been finished by then. We are talking about a mower amount of lets say betwee approx 128,000( Autos end) to 180,000 approx for (Model 5 S1 start). This makes around 50,000 mowers in between...So if they are making,as unkies ad suggests approx 3,000 mowers a week thats 12,000 a month so in four months we have our 50,000 mowers. Halve it for the STD and this may make around 25,000 mowers or two months in between.

So if you can follow my mess.what that means is. Between the model 4 Automatic and model 5 S1 we have only 2 months worth of the PLAIN model 4. Its such a short time frame any thing could have been put on...A: Basic Auto leftover parts or B: A special Badge.
I hope this makes sense.

As for taking away the exhaust side guard holes and Leaving the 2 holes on the carby side...Ive thought about this at length...And can only think of one conclusion...Since the edger slot has still been reatined also,I can only assume the 2 holes were left for an Edger Blade Guard". As on the following model All Extras were removed on the plain base,leaving the Edger Idea Abamdoned until its re release on the Sheerline. I would assume the edgar attachment MUST have a guard,perhaps similar to todays edgers...A half moon or cap style bolted to the edge. This is an opinion/assumption ONLY.

Thanks Mal, yes mate, it all makes sense. Hopefully someone will post a pic of one with the genuine receipt complete with the date from the dealer, in all its undressed glory.

Re; the model 5; I had thought along those lines as well, maybe being for attachment support brackets for the ill-famed edger....so we're both on the same page....Lols.

By the way Deejay your Model 5 has to be a series 1 if it has axel extensions, with maybe a later model engine.
And Blue I agree with your above assumptions, yet to see any evadence of a model 4 with a Special badge myself.

So something that had been on my mind and has been touched on by you guys, is if the Special was badged upon release, and if so, how? My initial feeling also was that it wasn't badged, so I did a little digging:

This is the earliest Special pamphlet, followed by a detail of the mower - not sure if any of you have ever seen this one:




So what does this tell us?

*In the initial phase of the Special's marketing, they had already moved to "2 mighty mowers" not three.

*The Special badge as we know it had still not been designed, as evidenced by the detail in the pamphlet. It appears they had the idea but had not yet applied it. Confirmation that the Special was released un-badged?

That is an interesting illustration, it shows the straight bar spanner.....no rubber under the tank strap, and the Predicta axle extensions and a Model 2A pulley .....and a badge very similar to the Auto with the word Special applied....a real 'bitsa'

By the way, I have more to add on my Model 5, if, as Jonesy believes, it was an original Series 1...(Predicta axle housing and base extensions), it also has the 2 hole carby top with one hole blocked off with a silver fitting with the letter 'V' stamped into it....and on pulling the handles apart, it had the remains of a plastic badge consistent with the original Special badge....In fact, I still have the broken piece. You can see it in this pic, the day Joe Carroll got it at the swap meet....


Here is a pic of the carby top.....


And the machine nearly finished...

The plot thickens.....

Agreed Unkie...The Badge is of the "Auto Style". This transition phase could well have had a few indcisions...They would not have planned the Automatic to be a flop...It could have gone on for 100,000 more models if it was a success. So it would have been all hands on deck when they decided to pull the Auto....They may not have been 100% ready to release the Model 5S1 Special as they had planned.

These remaining model 4 mowers would have to suffice for sales of some kind,else the company would fair badly with nothing to offer....Id say the Special" NAME only was brought forward to thesse models,But NO badge was ready to be used on these mowers,because they were still being prepared/made/in production for the Original Model 5 S1 Special Release.

So A case of lets use the name on our Model 4 non autos until the badges are ready to be fitted...Seems very convincing.
Your right Deejay..We have found many discrepencies in Artwork/ads thus far. I think it also proves that they werent fully ready with thier Special release. So they just relied on revamped Artwork from previous models to get a near enough.

This paticular Advert is the Most innacurate,which to me proves its also the Earliest! (And you will probaly find as time goes on,this Ad and this Exact mowers Stance were used in a prior Ad for the model 4 Auto or model 3 STD). I think this all but Solved unkie....Very Nice ads once again!.

I would tend to agree with Jonesy on that one - M5S1 with a M5S3 motor change. I do like the blocked off carby cap though - I wonder if it was a factory job?

You mentioned sales receipts for a Model 4, Deejay? Can't help there, but these were generously supplied to me:

SN: 225,146 - 6/1/1959


SN: AA18,716 - 6/10/59

Ha ha I was going to ask you to put your mower up Deejay as I hadnt seen it in its original form...But I changed my mind! lols.

Ok so what is it you need to know?

The victa cap is a Victa Factory Fix. It may have have come of your Mower Originally if its serial was low enough.

It was originally used on the models directly after the Automatic to allow the use of the single cable on the Plain Model 4. You will sometimes find they still run the twin cable slide as it wasnt necessary to change that.
Many reverted Autos dont have these caps as it was a long way down the track when they failed. Mostly owners put in screws/bolts or whatever when they failed.
You are more likely to see them on plain Specials than on Autos.

Your mower is a Model 5S1,but with a later engine. Funny, I have actually 3 AA..... serials here at present,just sold one on ebay. All 3 are model 5 S2s. And yes this Model of yours would have had the Special Badge:) Does this help any?

Thanks Mal for your help....I thought it was a M5 S2, that post puts it to bed...It is a M5 S1....Yahooo!!

In the last add you posted Unkie, do you notice something funny going on with the base, just under the carby? Also can't really make out what that is directly under the carb, I might just not be seeing it properly though and the edge bolts?

Yeah, not sure what that is mate. It might just be a bit of dodgy retouching, as they were prone to do back in those days.

So I got eyes on those engineering drawings and thought I would throw up a consolidated list of dated info we have thus far:

17/5/1957 � Back Carrier Plate (Part No. 6-004) of the Predicta mechanism drafted in engineering drawings at the Victa plant.

24/5/1957 � Front Carrier Plate (Part No. 6-005) of the Predicta mechanism drafted in engineering drawings at the Victa plant. No further amendments are noted on this drawing.

24/8/1957 � First advertisement for the Automatic appears in the Canberra Times, with a price of 56 Guineas, and the opportunity to �order NOW�. It may be assumed that this advertisement was for pre-orders only.

13/9/1957 � Full page newspaper advertisement appears in The Sun, stating �out to-day�, and �Victa Agents everywhere are displaying�. This can be assumed to be the formal release date of the Automatic � at least in Eastern States.

17/9/1957 � Amendments made to Engineering drawings for Back Carrier Plate (Part No. 6-004).

19/9/1957 � The Nepean Times (NSW) advertises the Automatic as being �on display� in store and offers at-home demonstrations.

20/9/1957 � Front Carrier Arm (Part No. 6-006) of the Predicta mechanism drafted in engineering drawings at the Victa plant. Drawing is noted to supersede drawing No. V-426/B

28/9/1957 � The West Australian newspaper invites readers to �Preview at the show ... the pre-release models of the amazing new Victa Automatic. This advertisement indicates a delayed release date in Western Australia.

?/10/1957 � Victa Archive note states that the Automatic required modification at some time during the month of October.

03/10/1957 � A Canberra Times advertisement invites people to �see the Victa Automatic� in store.

15/10/1957 - Amendments made to Engineering drawings for Back Carrier Plate (Part No. 6-004).

25/10/1957 - Amendments made to Engineering drawings for Back Carrier Plate (Part No. 6-004).

22/11/1957 � The Melbourne Age advertises the Automatic along with the Standard (49gns.)

04/12/1957 � The Australian Women�s Weekly publishes the first of four monthly, full page colour advertisements for the Automatic, using black and white photos of the Automatic, in which the Predicta mechanism appears in its final state.

31/1/1958 � The Automatic is listed along with the Rotomo as being available, in a Canberra Times advertisement of this date.

09/2/1958 � The Melbourne Age prints a full page advertisement for the Automatic which also offers the �Standard� at a price of 49 Guineas. The �Standard� Illustration is that of the Model 3 Rotomo. This advertisement uses an image of a woman in shorts pushing the mower, which later appears in other advertisements offering the Automatic together with the Standard and the Special simultaneously. A second photo illustrates the mower without its safety rim-guards fitted.

25/2/1958 � The Canberra Times prints two advertisements, one of which lists the Rotomo and the Automatic on almost equal footing, the second advertisement invites the reader to �see the new Victa motor Mower � the Victa �Special� at 55 pounds 13 shillings. This represents the first advertised mention of the Special.

12/3/1958 � The Women�s Weekly full page advertisement is amended to include the availability of the �Standard 18� Victa�, and pictures the Model 3 Rotomo with a price of 49 Guineas.

12/3/1958 � The Canberra Times advertises the availability of the Special and the Automatic.

13/3/1958 � Canberra Times advertisement represents the final advertisement for the Automatic, along-side the �powerful new� Victa 18� Petrol Rotomo.

?/3/1958 � An article notes the �huge demand for Victa mowers� and the increase to 3,000 units produced per week to cope with orders. The article also notes that agents will be able to fulfill orders �within a few days�. The article goes on to advertise the Automatic (56gns.), the Special (53gns.) and the Standard (49gns.). Of note is the illustration of the Special appearing without a badge and the Standard illustrated as the Model 3 Rotomo.

17/4/1958 - Amendments made to Engineering drawings for Back Carrier Plate (Part No. 6-004) and Front Carrier Arm (Part No. 6-006).

13/6/1958 - Amendments made to Engineering drawings for Back Carrier Plate (Part No. 6-004) and Front Carrier Arm (Part No. 6-006) �Tollerance + note added� � interpreted as indicating part designs had reached their final state.

29/8/1958 � Canberra Times advertisement offers �2 Mighty� mowers � the Standard (49gns.) and the Special (53gns.). The absence of a reference to the Automatic indicates that by this date, the automatic was no longer offered.

That's it for confirmed dates thus far. Still need to compile other info we have discussed, but that'll do for now lol...

Unkie, you are a machine, what a great job, well done mate, it would take me two days to type all that

Well picked up #5 today, (thanks for the lead Unkie as I missed it) bloody gum tree had it in Hobart region but was only 5 min from home, not a lot good on it, but for what I paid will be worth it, very strange engine # that has got me, but what do I know. Just check out the custom axels

Tassie must be where all the Auto/4s go to die! ....The axles are cool,But im liking the custom rear Exhaust better...Ive No Idea on the Number,never seen a U prefix...Definately Period Number stamping though. A misprint would make it maybee 161,127 to high for Auto. Special order possibly?.
Who knows,but something different! Im always looking out for unusuals,Gives more to research.

Nice score mate - glad to have been of help. I'd reckon Blue is on the money with the misprint, and would agree it reads 161,127, which I find bloody interesting. To be honest, it's this number range that we know the least about (128,000 --> 185,000). Finding more of these transitional numbers will really help to build a watertight chronology, ie - finding out how the Model 3 and 4 overlapped, and at what point the badged Special kicked off. What kind of carby has it got, Jonesy?

I see the 118,000 that started this topic is still on gumtree?
Just looks like later single cable carby, silde is stuck so will have to free that up,and later model fuel tap, pity the two side flap bolts are so rusty and the air cleaner broken, oh well you get what you pay for I will get another clear shot of the engine # as there is a bit about the "U" that is a bit Suss. And yes Blue racing exhaust

Another nice full page advertisement confirming the release of the Special:

The Sydney Morning Herald - Mar 9, 1958

Nice hunting once again Unkie, I can confirm that the "U" in the engine # of my last pickup as being not so much a misprint but just poorly executed, I would say the right hand side of the U is just an imprint from the side of the stamp head as you can see in the pic the left hand side is definatly a 1, so engine #161,127, you can see the 6 has the same thing but just not as pronounce.

Nice one Jonesy. Now you have too many model 4's....give me one...
I was speaking to someone today that sayed he had an engine with the letter 'T' in front of the numbers. Could also be a poorly executed engine number as well. I'd have to see it though...

Here are some images of a Model5 S2 held in the Powerhouse Museum storage:






No serial?!?

That's a wild card there Unkie, by the way it is a series 1 base with series 2 axel housings

Hi All, that looks like a real bitza....bits and pieces thrown together for Victa to donate to the museum....not really what you would call 'museum' quality or good for their archives either.

Back from the dead! Thought I would throw up a few images of a complete and pristine instruction/warranty pack that sold on feebay recently for just over $300

It's the first - and probably last - that I'll ever see,so it's good for the archives I reckon.

Hi Unkie and great to see you back on the forum mate!
on some great scores there mate, it's the first time I have seen a pristine package like that before, and something to be very proud of.

Did you buy the instruction/warranty Pack????
Also have you had time to have a good look at your straight bar spanner yet?? like how the bar is held in and the length of the bar??
Also in post #48826 in the last photo did you notice on the "Special" the straight Tommy Bar and clip on safety ring, makes no sence, maybee just another case of older touched up drawings.

cheers.

OK seeing how everyone has seemed to have disapeared from the thread I might as well keep pushing along with what is seemed to be acepted as being correct, of course jump in with any info that you may think the contrary.
The first starter for the Automatic "predicta" was wire rope with tension nut in the centre of the starter top, the bulge on the side that housed the spring retaining roll pin had a domed top and a small screw through the side, the split aluminium handle had a green rubber sleeve holding the two halves of the handle together, this type of starter had a "dog nut" screwed to the top of the crank shaft, this early type starter did not have a replacable wear sleave were the wire rope exits the starter housing.

The second type of starter that came later in the production but prosumably around 112-113,000, (as with the introduction of the slit in the height adjuster and the demise of the oil nips in the axel housings) was the same only it had the spring retaining rollpin come through to the top of the buldge in the side of the casing, normally blanked off with a factory type cap or modified screw, it still was wire rope and used the "dog nut", it had a replacable wear sleave were the wire rope came out of the starter housing this type of starter had a black rubber handle sleave once the true "Predicta" had finished it's run.

the third type used rope and had no signs of the Buldge on the side for the spring retaining roll pin and used a pully on top of the crank shaft instesd of the "dog nut" to suit the different starter Pawles associated with the new starter it also had no nut on top of the housing and had a black plastic starter "T" handle.
The second of the two types of starter, with a black rubber on the alloy starter handle halves was re introduced later on in the Model 5 series 2 as I am led to belive, it also had a wear sleave but was different to the second type of starter.

first type






type 1 (right) and type 2 (left) showing the non & replacable wear sleave.




second type




Third type




this is as I understand so I hope it helps.

cheers

OK, next is touching on the correct fuel taps,

All model 4's had the "Cigar" type fuel tap up until the introduction of the Model 5 series 1.

the confirmed correct type of tap is the type on the left with the hex nut top and bottom and the full Knerl for grip, the one on the right is a aftermarket fuel tap often seen on ebay, it has a differnt knerl & a wire CirClip type retainer on the lower half of the tap body.




the third type is yet to be confirmed as an original but was found on an original example of a model 4. It has the same knerl but has a wire CirClip type retainer on the lower half of the tap body.