OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Restoring, Customising and Modifying Tech Talk Toro 246H Crankshaft Pulley Removal

hi guys i now have a torro wheel horse 246 h with a blown 16hp twin briggs i am trying to get the engine out and i have undone the four engine to chasis bolts i have removed the electric clutch pulleys but the top pulley wont budge and i cant see why it has no grub screws etc here is a pic or two

any help would be apreciated regards mike

There are six standard ways to hold pulleys on shafts: axial bolts, grub screws, pinching collars, tapers, tapered keys (gib-head keys) and press fits. You should be able to see the crankshaft above the pulley to verify it is the same diameter as below the pulley: if it is, there is no taper. You should also be able to see whether there is a grub screw or a gib-head key. It does not look as if there is a pinching collar (tapered collar, pulled into the gap between shaft and pulley by a nut against the pulley) but check above the pulley as well. If it has none of the other retention methods, it must be one of two things: a press fit, which means you have to remove it with a gear puller; or retained by an axial bolt, tapped into the crankshaft's Power Take Off shaft. The crankshaft looks a bit messed up and abraded in the picture, so it might be a hassle to get it off. See if you can get some penetrating oil to soak in between the pulley and the crankshaft.

thanks grumpy ill give it a good soak i couldnt find any grub screws etc the electric clutch setup was up against it and i presume it has a key in the keyway.ill have to find a suitable puller and give that a go.she has broken a conrod and a religious block (holy)
the bore isnt scored

Mike, it didn't need to be all that tight on the shaft because it was held by whatever was further down the crankshaft (the bits you've removed). However that part of the crankshaft looks rough, and so does the front surface of the remaining pulley. It looks as if you may need to tidy all of that by careful use of a scraper before you use the puller. The engine is probably not fixable, but you will need the pulley anyway, so it has to come off.

Most broken rods on B&S engines seem to be due to running them out of oil, and the rest seem to be caused by incorrect assembly or running them with an ineffective governor. Did that one have any oil in it?

It looks like there is some sort of collar there. I would be wire brushing it to see if you can spot a difference where the diameters differ.

I would be wondering if you can get that pulley to go further up the crank toward the engine. Clean the shaft (with emery or a file) Heaps of WD or CRC. See if it will go up, even just a 1mm.

With the chattering that the lower one has done on the crank i would expect that there will be a nice burr on the crank at the bottom of the pulley you are trying to remove.


You might need to consult a parts list to see if there are any extra holdy on bits.


Bob.

the oil was black but didnt have much metal in it it seems to have broken then he shut it down.i will try to move it up the shaft as you sujested bob and clean the shaft up and try again

It looks to me as if the bottom pulley was an aluminium one that didn't fit, and it has sprayed pieces of aluminium over everything as it chattered on the shaft. You will need a new lower pulley. I can't tell for sure whether the crankshaft steps up in diameter at the bottom of the upper pulley. If it does, once you clean up the flakes of aluminium that are coating the joint between the upper pulley and the shoulder on the shaft, and soak the upper shaft with penetrant, it should pull off fairly easily. If there is no step in the crankshaft, you will have to pull the upper pulley all the way to the end of the crankshaft with a puller, and that will only be feasible if you do some restoration work on that lower part of the crankshaft first. Pushing the pulley a bit further up the shaft will tell you for sure whether there is a step in the shaft, and will also let you clean up the shaft and shoulder before going to work with the puller.

Short summary: I agree with Bob.

mmm well i had some serious preasure on it and i couldnt get it to budge in either direction its a straight shaft briggs twin cylinder engine 16 hp

I'd like to know more about that smaller diameter section at the bottom of the pulley boss. Is it part of the pulley, or a separate part? There is also a mysterious joint line around the end face of the boss that needs to be investigated, along with the flat on the outside of the boss about halfway along it. Can we see the boss from some other directions please? Is there a matching flat on the opposite side of the boss? Can we see an end view of the keyway in the shaft and boss? There is a missing detail here somewhere. Some of what I see suggests there is a pinching (tapered) collar inside that boss.

mmm well i had some serious preasure on it and i couldnt get it to budge in either direction its a straight shaft briggs twin cylinder engine 16 hp the smaller diam shaft is part of the pulley its welded on by the looks of it my guess is its frozen on.i might try heat it up and see if it moves then

Mike, are you saying that the top pulley has the shaft extension as part of it, and the crankshaft ends inside the top pulley? If so, all is explained. You have to remove the pulley from the engine, and you can't do it with a puller because you are pulling and pushing against the same part: you can't push the shaft extension into the pulley hub, because they are a single component.

Can you clarify the status of the flat on the side of the pulley hub? Is there the head of a tapered pin in the center of the flat? There is usually a positive retention of the shaft extension piece if it has one, rather than relying on a press fit. A tapered pin would be a sensible way to do it, if combined with a key and keyway.

I suggest you don't try heating it up at this stage: you'll cook the crankshaft seal, and may distort the crankshaft.

If there is no positive retention device, you can probably remove the pulley by using a slide-hammer puller on the pulley instead of a screw-type puller. However this won't work if it has a pin through the pulley hub and crankshaft.

Grumpy, probably should have asked;


How long was the bolt that went up in the bottom of the pulley you did get off???



Definatley clean it up and take some more pictures.



It does look like there would be 3" of shaft into that pulley thats on there and the shaft the other pulley was on is an extension.

Bob.

Bob, with hindsight it always was unlikely that Briggs had made an engine with the crankshaft sticking out well over 6" from the crankcase. It would be too likely to break off when some clown put a load on the end of it.

The people who made that ride-on had some questionable design features (resulting in that aluminium bottom pulley running loose and self-destructing, as well as a very ugly cantilevered load on the engine's crankshaft), but I am reluctant to believe they'd have a heavy cast iron top pulley rotating at 3,000 rpm retained only by a very light press fit, and luck. Even gravity would be working against them. That's why I'm looking so hard for a pin or some equivalent holding the pulley from falling off the shaft. It could retain itself with a heavy press fit, but then they would have broken the engine's crankcase or bent the crankshaft when they pressed it on, and it could never be removed with a puller for engine maintenance.

It could be that there is a cap head screw/bolt up inside the hole at the bottom too.


What size was the bolt that held the pulley on that has been removed. Is there anything up in the hole???


THis is where the parts list would help.


Bob.

mike, does the pulley only have one flat spot along the boss or is there another one on the opposite side. if so it could be possible that the pulley is screwed onto the crankshaft. regards john

Mike, where is the thread that Item 19 (bolt) screws into? Does it screw into Item 16 (pulley) - that is, does it screw into the shaft extension - or is it about a yard long and reaches up right through the shaft extension and screws into the end of the crankshaft? If it screws into the end of the crankshaft, by removing it you have freed the upper pulley axially, and it can be removed with a slide-hammer puller (though not with a screw puller). If it is a relatively short bolt and screws into the end of the shaft extension, we still don't know what is holding the upper pulley and shaft extension on the crankshaft. The diagram does not show any kind of pin etc, so I'm hoping you have a yard-long bolt that reaches right up to the crankshaft. You can check just by putting that bolt into the hole in the end of the crankshaft extension, and seeing whether it goes in far enough to be reaching up past the crankshaft extension and into the pulley hub, where the end of the crankshaft is, before it strikes thread.

Hi Mike, I have spoken this morning to a gentleman who is a TORO repair specialist...He explained that you have done the hard part; (ie.) getting the clutch off without breaking it..(he said they often have to almost destroy it because of corrosion to get it off and they are $1000 to replace...ouch!!)

The upper pulley is a press fit that has a key built into it and should pull off with a gear puller once soaked with heaps of Penetrene and the lower part of the shaft cleaned up.

He said to do the following:
1. Open http://www.toro.com/

2. go to Home Owner Parts

3. When asked, enter your full Model Number and Serial Number of your machine (found under the seat of your Toro); this will take you to complete working drawings and give you the info you require.
Please let us know how you get on.

Deejay's description sounds as if the bolt that screws in from the bottom is indeed a yard long and screws into the crankshaft. If so, the upper pulley can be removed with a gear puller provided you screw the long bolt in first, and apply the screw of the gear puller to the head of that bolt, not the end of the shaft extension. That approach is better than the slide-hammer, which applies impact loads to the crankshaft thrust bearing and the side of the crankcase.

It also sounds as if the aluminium adhering to the crankshaft extension is there because of corrosion and seizure between the aluminium and steel parts, not because the aluminium part was running loose. Let's hope that was the case, since the aluminium part is expensive to replace. When you reassemble, you should put some suitable lubricating agent on the crankshaft extension so the corrosion will not happen again.

Hi grumpy, the gentleman I spoke to said nothing about screwing a bolt into the crankshaft first.... and because the TORO site needs the complete model and serial numbers, we cannot see the info that will be supplied for his particular machine, therefore making it hard for us to give advice....