Ok on a flat concrete surface the tips of the cutting blades measured MIN: 55mm MAX: 115mm - so a range of 60mm of travel/varience.
This is a tad odd as the manual's specs state for cutting position heights MIN: 10mm MAX: 88mm - a range of 78mm - thats a big difference.
The cutting height being so different in reality is odd too - I mean 10mm is really scalping stuff - which it just doesn't do. Now my model has the tractor style high grip tyres, and I thought perhaps this might be a factor vs the lower profile ones. But still seems very odd and surely the range of overall movement in cutting height would be near identical, not nearly 25% less than stated.
Any ideas on why this might be?
As a side note in theory one could cut/grind a lot lower for the control mounted slide adjuster to cut lower, as it will move further but theres just no more slots for it - seems to be an extra 10mm or so of height available downwards and likely upwards as well - only thing with this is that the deck/skirt height also stays the same so you'd be dragging the skirt lower too. Hence the idea of the spacer in the first place.
PS. Emailed Deutscher to ask them, you never know they might have an idea.
Made me wonder what the H660 is rates and and oddly it claims 10mm! Which I'm not seeing in practice at all - will go measure on the floor of the garage but well off this - no idea why as the tyres are pumped up all to spec (20psi) etc.
PS. Been meaning to ask this - when using the H660, I found the Low Speed terribly slow, whereas the Fast was a tad nippy, especially round obstacles (lots of Citrus trees) - is 'riding' the clutch(having in gear but applying varying levels of squeeze to the handle so the belt is pushed in/out a certain amount) in this style of gearbox an absolute no-no or vaguely acceptable?
I'd have thought it ok as the gears are engaged constantly, only the belt's tightness is altered.[/quote]
Hi Nick ,
With the cutting height being out ,I always check the plate that holds the spindle bearings hasn't been bolted on the wrong side, thus raising the blades if the plate is bolted on top instead of being bolted under the deck.
It's always a lot quicker to compare your mower with another to see if something is installed wrong or bent ,I've had mowers where the blade plate is bent upward and you straighten the plate and it lowers the blades a good half inch, blades also can be bent and need to be flattened.
I contacted Deutscher days ago about the stepped blades and to measure the step but they never replied.
With first being too slow and second being too fast and slipping the V belt ,the more the belt slips the quicker the wear ,I wouldn't say it's been designed for constant slipping but I've had ride on mowers where the gear speed is just controlled by how much the V belt slips.
I see the Deutscher mower lists it's speed in gear at 2500 rpm ,so I would try second gear at a lower rpm and see if the speed is right or speed up the rpm in first ,if the speed still isn't correct I'd put some lower profile tyres on to slow down second gear.
They also don't recommend cutting on a slope greater than 10 degrees to the horizontal.
On normal flat terrain I would think these mowers would cut well between 1800 rpm and 2500 rpm.
Deutscher also recommend to use a low throttle settings when engaging the ground drive, especially in high gears. Reduce speed on slopes and in sharp turns to prevent overturning or loss of control Do not mow excessively steep slopes.
If the blade at the front is a lot lower than the blade at the back then the front wheels need lifting or rear wheel need lowering if you cant adjust the deck but you need to check the blade plate and blades aren't bent.
Firstly, thank you as always for your efforts - you always bust your backside - and it's never NOT appreciated, so thank you.
Not sure why the quote function on the forums isn't working properly (atleast for me) but I will respond:
- I'm 99% sure everything on the Deutscher is where it's meant to be, it showed no signs of being modded etc nor any significant damage. But I am happy to take pix if you wish. Not exactly sure what you mean by the 'plate that hold the spindle bearings', as I cannot see how this could be mounted anywhere other than where it is. But if you think some pix would help, let me know happy to take. :-)
- the blades and disc carrier plate are all not the root cause, checked and the blade height inside the skirt is even for both blades, no bending in them (they're the HD 3mm thick ones, would be mighty effort to bend!) and the disc carrier is also at equal heights on both sides and also on the correct way (the central bolt on part is higher than the outside blade mounting points).
- RE: Stepped blades - as mentioned earlier those ones that are specifically for the Deutscher, I heard back from GA Spares a few days ago - theyve only got a very small 2-3mm step in them.
- Points taken RE: the speed issues, is manageable by working the 'clutch'(well the belt tensioner) - and I cannot see this causing any issues with the gearbox so likely fine.
- RE: slope angle - oh yes noted, and this is common across all rideons, ZTRs etc but in rural places - everyone goes beyond this with due amount of care, or we'd all needthose specialist slope mowers that cost a fortune. The slopes I'm on are pretty tame but all noted.
- RE: RPMs yes noted, I did do this on first usage but is something I do.
Thank you for the manual excerts, I do have the physical manaual here but appreciate the effort.
I've just been down and while it's far from ideal, I've added two thick washers to each of the 3 blade carrier bolts between the blade carrier plate and the central hub/spindle's plate. This gives ~5mm of differential between the blades' cutting height and the skirt height. This still just slightly keeps the centremost RAISED head just slightly inside the carrier plate, so the force of it is not entirely on the 3 bolts.
I'll give it a brief test later, worst case I'll remove completely or pull back to just one thick washer each. Was super simple to do and every few mm is handy, but if there's any vibration or loosening of the bolts I'll just put it back to OEM setup.
I think making up the two part spacer setup might be the best approach to getting ~20mm of a step, for whatever reason Deutscher really have the skirt very low compared to the blades, with ~30-40mm difference lower on the skirt at every point other than the front where it's still ~20mm lower.
FWIW didn't like the lack of the central hubs penetration on the disc carrier with the two washers as spacers, so removed one, so only a single washer ~2mm in place. As much as I am sure it would be fine not worth the potential nightmare of the disc carrier breaking free.
Used angle grinder to place extra 'lower' adjustment slot in top cut height adjuster, took 5mins, super easy not sure if it will be usable given lower skirt height too but better than nothing.
I don't think the spindle bearing plate has been installed on the wrong side of the deck and it's probably not possible with your Deutscher mower but is just something I would check on a machine if it's possibly put together wrong because of the cutting height and you always check nothing is damaged as I've seen a lot of damaged 3 mm thick blades ,they most probably damaged the blades from hitting concrete drain covers or not seeing concrete pavers etc.
I knew of your reply about the step measurement on the Deutscher blades and only mentioned I hadn't heard from them because you said you sent Deutscher a message and it was my way of saying they may not respond because my question had no response from Deutscher.
If the blade plate is mostly flat another option is to drill holes closer to the centre line of the blade plate and install the longer stepped blades without cutting the length down of the blade or drilling the blade holes out in the blades.
See attached pix, freshly taken of the spindle bearing plate location, above & below the deck. So mine is below, hs no signs it's ever been moved or modded.
Point taken on any blade being able to be damaged - but I've literally got brand new blades out of the packet, so thats not a factor in terms of the cut height - I mean they'd have to be obviously damaged to have that difference int he cut height.
No dramas with the Deutscher info on the step, I appreciate your being so thorough. :-)
Thats a good idea with the blade plate, adding extra holes, to avoid having to mod those larger blades - only thing is the holes in the blade carrier as not a simple hole, rather the circular on one side and flat/straight on the other to stop the bolts from turning one they're put in. Not sure how I'd go with fabricating one of those, they're also reinforced with an extra collar of metal around them for reinforcement. I mean if you go down that path of those bigger stepped blades you're up for the cost anyway - so I suppose using the easiest way is logical - and that would be cutting them down using the existing holes in the disc carrier. Enlarging the holes on the blades from 13mm to 16mm wouldn't be overly hard.
Now as chance had it I had my 2nd use of the H660 last evening, was much better than originally - gloved up to avoid more blisters (which are still healing from last time) - a mentioned I'd placed a LOWER cut selection slot on the slide area. The height this cut at was pretty much bang on. But yeah was an issue quite regularly that the skirt would cause issues dragging, wasn't the end of the world but Deutscher have this too low 10-20mm up and would be perfect.
Only real way to do this is either a spacer or the stepped blades, seems plain and simple choice - as I did consider cutting 10mm off the bottom of the skirt and then quickly ruled that out as utter stupidity,
Cheers, Nick
PS. Max in looking for some more stepped blade options I've gone back to one you recommended earlier: https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/120211/re-deutscher-h660-26-walk-behind-w-b-s-intek-10-5hp-needs-tlc-now-what.html#Post120211
In one of those recommendations/pix the step on the Orion blades is stated as 10mm, which is viable for me = 20mm would be nice but thats very rare and the HUGE slasher blades you linked earlier that had a 22m step are 250mm long meaning I'd have to cut too much off them (to get to the 115mm effective length needed). Tad too much mass on the end too - would be a worry.
But the Orion ones seem workable - but thats a very rare listing that shows the step size - none of the others seem to - makes me wonder if 10mm is the standard step on SKIT33 and all the other blades for them or if thats a one off set with a larger step. Might have to go in to a few shops and eyeball them As online you can't really tell but pix would make me think it's possible they all have a 10mm step .
Hi Nick What about a 10/15 or 20mm disc and just use that as a spacer between the spindle and the blade carrier, that should be pretty simple and not too difficult to make?
[quote=NormK]Hi Nick What about a 10/15 or 20mm disc and just use that as a spacer between the spindle and the blade carrier, that should be pretty simple and not too difficult to make?[/quote]
Hi Norm,
Hope you're well.
Yes, but as we discussed originally the tricky thing is incorporating that raised central 'knob' area of the spindle, which is without being a physics expert responsible for a lot of the heavy work keeping the disc carrier on. Yeah there's the three bolts but I reckon they aren't as important as this ~30mm wide bit.
So the hard thing is having one side of the spacer that will essentially be 'female' and allow that from the spindle into it, but then you'd also have to have a 'male' side of the spacer, where there'd be a raised 'knob' of the right size to go into the blade carrier. Thats the hard part - as drilling the holes and getting longer bolts is easy.
Not sure if I'm missing an easy work around on that - as I'd just go and get a piece of mild steel fromt he local metal mart & knock up if I felt I could replicate that central hub/knob in some manner, but not sure how I would do this as it seems pretty mandatory to replicate - unless the bults alone are fine? Not sure if I can get away with just those, just basic 10mm thick ones I believe.
I was thinking a flat 10 mm plate between the spindle plate and under the deck would lower the blades but you may need to adjust the pulley up 10 mm on the top of the deck.
Hi Nick, an option to get around the nut in the middle problem is to have a hole in the middle of the spacer to clear the spindle nut, then you bolt the blade carrier on and that covers over the hole
[quote=NormK]Hi Nick, an option to get around the nut in the middle problem is to have a hole in the middle of the spacer to clear the spindle nut, then you bolt the blade carrier on and that covers over the hole[/quote]
Hi Norm,
Yes, I can see that as an option, but the downside of that is whilst the spacer would be in place and bolted on - via the 3 bolts, it would not have benefit of that central hub to hold it in place. Now it is possible it is not needed at all and the 3 bolts alone might provide enough strength to hold it on, but I'd imagine Deutscher utilised that design for a reason and there's a definite benefit to how it slots into the blade carrier providing a lot of force itself.
Again I'm not sure if that if is overthinking things or not, I've not seen as many spindles & blade carriers in my time as yourself....so of course using the gold rule of 'all care, no responsibility' I'd definitely heed your thoughts as one who knows a LOT more than myself. I am just wary to move away from the designers original ideas off my own logic alone. :-)
So you think the 3 nuts alone would be more than ample to secure that size blade carrier?
So have used the big beast once more with the washers on the spindle as spacers for that extra 5mm or so. Does give a good cut height comparable with utility mower - getting better with knowing how to get the best from it e.g big long straight runs, don't mess around with areas you can't get just bomb on and come back later with the utility mower or trimmer.
The skirt still digs in too much in some spots so ordered some stepped blades as long discussed,
Ok well based on the terrific help of Norm & Max i hunted for some suitable blades with a decent step in them. Didn't want to spend a heap as wasn't sure this will be a long term solution. Ended up grabbing these: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/234914543776
Asked the seller in advance if they were 3mm & heat treated. They took a full week to reply simply writing '3'. I assumed they're blades they'd be heat treated, so sure enough a bunch of mild steel painted ones turn up. Go figure - I've emailed asking wh they couldn't have just answered the query instead of deliberately replying selectively but not end of the world & was easier to mod than hardened would have been.
Used round file to enlarge the hole from 13mm to 16mm. Not overly hard. Then cut down the blades to the functional length of the flat ones, did the first one with an angle grinder - that was a tad messy - used hacksaw for the next. Much better. Cleaned up on bench grinder and put nice thick angle on them.
In hindsight I do wonder if as suggested drilling a new hole in the disc carrier further towards the centre would have been easier. I would love to know if the experts think that a 13mm round hole would be suitable as I would not be able to easily replicate the normal 'half round-half flat' holes that the bolts are meant for. Unless there's a trick to do I'm missing e.g drill 10mm hold and expand with small round & flat files?
The disc carrier is 3mm thick itself - so plenty thick enough, but unsure best way to do extra holes IF that was deemed feasible ? Could be handy option vs modding another 6 blades & I now have 8 x 13mm bolts etc.
The washers between the blade plate and hub isn't the recommended way of lowering the blades because of the lost surface area that no longer supports the blade plate so any stress is concentrated on the flat washers now and can eventually crack the blade plate at the bolt holes.
The recommended way is to machine up a spacer hub that will lock into a shoulder on one side and the other side of the spacer it has a machined protrusion that locks into the blade plate ,but I haven't seen the diementions of the blade plate or hub on this mower so as Norm mentioned a round plate with a hole will have more support than smaller washers.
Here are some factors to consider:
Surface Area Support: The blade plate mounting surface must maintain adequate support. If the washers increase the distance of the bolts from the blade plate to the mounting surface too much, it can lead to stress concentrations at the blade plate bolt holes, which may cause cracks over time.
Load Distribution: The large flat surface of the hub is designed to distribute the load evenly across the blade plate. By using only small washers, you are reducing the contact area significantly. This can lead to stress concentrations around the bolt holes, making them more susceptible to cracking, especially under the forces generated during operation.
Alignment and Stability: Spacing the blade plate away from the hub with washers can lead to misalignment. If the blade plate is not stable and secure, it can vibrate or flex during operation, increasing the likelihood of failure.
Material Stress: The blade plate is subject to significant forces, especially during cutting. If the current design relies on a flat surface for proper engagement and support, adding washers may not provide adequate support against these forces, leading to eventual cracking.
Alternative Solutions: If you need to lower the blade plate for any reason, consider using a properly engineered spacer that maintains the original mounting surface area. This solution would preserve the load distribution and alignment.
In summary, while it might be tempting to use washers for spacing, it's generally advised against in this scenario due to the potential risks involved. It would be best to find an alternative method that maintains the necessary support and load distribution for the blade plate.
The D hole on the blade plate is easily drilled and shaped using a Dremel and small stone.
I have a blade plate here that is multi drilled for different blades ,see image below.
Example of a spacer below showing machined hole on one side with equal sized outer shoulder on the other side.
Also blades can be made from cutting up a bar blade and drilling bolt holes like the ones below that have a 13mm step.
I have a 660 here Max and as soon as I get a bit of space I will tip it on its side so I can get the blade carrier off so I can get some measurements and have a good look at it
That would be a good option Norm if Nick wants to get a spacer made ,if you had the time to sell him one that also would be a bonus but any fitter and turner or lathe operator can make one.
I'd wait until Nick decides what is best for himself unless you want to look for yourself.
Wow a few days away and you guys have placed some terrific info there. Thank you ever so much.
- RE: washers as spacers - good points (as always) Max - I will remove them. I knew it was a bit of a bodge effort but your points are all noted and I will take out.
- Excellent diagram with the spacer disc thats needed. Yes, it's a tricky one as needs as your diagram shows the protrusion/raised section to go into the blade carrier & then the indent/depressed section so it can allow the shaft to go into it.
- Yes, I've just looked online and as with you Max, cannot find anything of the shelf - not that I thought I would on the spacer front.
- Max, thank you for confirming that those D-hole shapes are easily enough fabricated with a dremel after drilling, I will order a few stones to keep onhand - much thanks.
- Norm, that is a very kind offer - and one that if you're open to being fairly paid, I'd quite likely take you up on. When i remove the washer spacers, I think the stepped blades will only give ~5mm of skirt vs cut differential. A decent amount more (`20mm) I'd say would be ideal. The added benefit of this would be I could go back to using the vastly superior hardened slasher blades, though I do suspect the fluting of the crappy Cox ones will assist with the clippings being thrown better - as opposed to being clumped as is the case now.
I'm pretty good with no hitting obstructions, but still mild steel loses it's edge very easily.
If you have a H660 there, I'd imagine your measurements will be superior to mine. I'll pop you a direct message, but please I do NOT want you to do it at cost, you need to be fairly paid as it will be a great help to me - happy to pay in advance and you can refund me what you don't end up charging (I offer this as I don't want even the perception of your goodwill being taken advantage of).
