Hi all New to the forum and congrats to all that contribute so informatively.
I have done a littlw research on the forums and feel could put my hands to sprucing up an old SB45 17” that i have originally borrowed from a friend. Pictures attached below.
It wasn’t cutting when i got hold of it and thru these forums worked out how to adjust and back blade to get paper cutting in it..yay! Still i think it could use a new reel and bed in time.
Moving on, the clutch hasn’t worked properly since he got it. Has the B&S conversion already but the blade engages regardless of clutch position. The thrust spacer is melted (brass better?)and i assume the cork is no good either.
The top chain was really loose and i applied only a little more tension seeing the tensioner was well worn from the chain already.
It does rattle a bit but as a new guy to this i am uncertain if it is clutch or chain related.
Also noted the rails have cracks.
So i am looking for some guide as to a estimate in repairs if i was to do these myself or have a pro do it. Before i go back to my mate with an offer on the machine to either buy it or take it off his hands. Not working atm due a stand down at work so $$$ are tight but have plenty of time
If i can get an idea on what i need to do here and where parts may be available from. Im on the gold coast.
With these mowers, the sky is the limit budget wise. But considering the economic climate right now, there are three things I'd get in order right away.
The first are the rail cracks. They can be welded and reinforced, or you can get them completely replaced over here in WA. Welded and reinforced rails will be the cheaper and quicker option but it won't last forever. I can't give you a cost there though as I've never fixed up a twin. Maybe budget $150?
The second is your clutch. I have no real idea what has been stuck in the oil hole, but I do know it ain't supposed to be there. I can only suspect it is holding things together? It may have damaged the PTO shaft and you should budget accordingly ($50). A completely new clutch half and inner cone could set you back $250. Trident Lawnmowers in WA makes new halves and SB Fabrication and Parts in SA does as well. I can only speak for Trident's workmanship (I have bought parts from both, but machined parts from Trident only) and it is top notch. Both have excellent reputations but their clutch halves are new to the scene. Regarding your thrust pad, plastic ($10) is just fine and cheaper than brass ($30). Both will wear from incorrect adjustment and lack of lubrication. Corks are cheap at around $8 for the clutch cone.
Finally, to my eyes, your cutter dual sprocket ($80) is well worn and should be replaced. The others look ok for now. I suspect your chain may be too tight here? You can buy a new sprocket from Outdoor King, as well as many other bits and pieces for the SB45 if you decide to purchase it and give it a good going over. You also have Reel Mower Solutions in QLD and CETE Parts (OPE Parts on eBay) in NSW. As well as your local mower shop...
The prices given are ball park but will give you an idea of what will need to be spent, plus the cost of the mower itself. See what you think, and once again, welcome.
I don't collect mowers. I just require Multiple Mowing Solutions™.
I'll have to say that this machine is not for your average restorer, only the fully committed should take this one on as this one will require a full work over for it to become a reliable workhorse as it certainly looks as if it's been worked really hard over it's lengthy lifespan.
and it won't take much to blow the budget as well as these parts are just getting more expensive by the day, just look at 5/8 bore clutch bodies now........................
Cheers, BB.
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
Couldn't agree more Norm, as most of you on here know I'm a huge advocate of removing these old thumpers and replacing them with better balanced engines that don't induce such stress and force on to those feeble rails.
Cheers, BB.
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
Thanks guys....any more thoughts as to what else should or could be done?? At a minimum i would go down mystylers auggestion The motor starts first go every time.....the throttle cable is broken but the lever works ok. The spring may do with replacing but otherwise seems fine. Just not sure how old it might be. I get it being a rattler and perhaps a cause to the cracked rails. Are there certain repairs that people do on these rails when welding? Or leave to the engineer to decide..like welding them together with a xmember?
BB, I have wondered for a while if it is the fact that the original motors punched up and down vertically delivering full downward impact on the rails as opposed to the sloper motors that may spread the downward impact in a sort of horizontal direction.
BB, I have wondered for a while if it is the fact that the original motors punched up and down vertically delivering full downward impact on the rails as opposed to the sloper motors that may spread the downward impact in a sort of horizontal direction.
Yes, the direction of max amplitude of the 'shakes and rattles' from the motor would definitely have significance in this failure mode.
High-tech Vibration Analysis [aka shakes and rattles] techniques are one of the core elements in any serious industrial heavy engineering Maintenance/Machine Condition Monitoring program, these days.
Cheers, Gadge
"ODK Mods can explain it to you, but they can't understand it for you..."
"Crazy can be medicated, ignorance can be educated - but there is no cure for stupid..."
Consensus seems to be that 3mm "u" shaped steel welded under the deck in the same orientation as the rails, with cutouts around bolt holes, etc. does a good job. You must ensure your existing rails are dead level and straight before you attempt any welding. A self aligning PTO bearing will absorb some error here, but shouldn't be used to excuse poor workmanship. As the last bead I ran was two decades ago, it's be handing it to a professional who knew what they were doing!
You can go nuts and get the whole thing blasted and repainted. Replace all the fasteners. New bearing housings and a new cutting cylinder and front roller. If you want a functional mower for minimum dollars, I'd do steps 1-3 as outlined previously. If you have any spare cash afterwards, then get a new motor. It transforms the machine. Unless you want a period correct machine, then for less than $300 it's almost a no brainer. If your current engine is a Briggs and Stratton, look on the air shroud. You should see "MODEL TYPE CODE" stamped into it, with corresponding numbers. You can date the engine by the CODE number.
Edit: they came standard with either a Kirby Lausen (Tecumseh licence-built in Australia) or a Briggs.
Last edited by Mystyler; 30/04/2010:02 PM.
I don't collect mowers. I just require Multiple Mowing Solutions™.
G'day all The last thing we want here is to promote myth making.
Grumpy - the most senior engineer to have appeared on these forums - dispelled the myth of horizontal versus sloper.
How any engine - in any configuration - avoids vibration must go to design.
Slopers are not inherently more vibration free than uprights. Simple test: rotate an upright 45 degree and note what happens. Rotate a sloper to upright and not what happens. Rotate a vertical shaft engine 45 degree and note what happens.
From what Grumpy told me - zilch! The vibration characteristics stay with the particular design; not its orientation.
I recall seeing a Scott Bonnar (maybe Rover) service bulletin noting unacceptable vibration with certain Briggs models. I think it was the 80202? Result was a counterweight added to the clutch. For that particular engine only.
I don't collect mowers. I just require Multiple Mowing Solutions™.
Ok, just thinking outside the square, in this case would it be easier to just remove the twin rails, get a 3mm plate folded up to bring it back to a single railer. Then seeing you have removed the existing rails, weld the new rail in say 5mm lower and then sit the existing motor on a piece of vibration eliminating material like this. https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/anti-vibration-mounts/0236492? Just a thought, works well in the airconditioning industry. Maybe even these https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/anti-vibration-mounts/3062461
You'd have to be careful in selecting the grade of stainless to use, though, if going that route. The common grades like AISI 304 and 316 undergo 'work hardening', and that makes them more susceptible to cracking than mild steel.
Last edited by Gadge; 01/05/2012:26 PM. Reason: Add link
Cheers, Gadge
"ODK Mods can explain it to you, but they can't understand it for you..."
"Crazy can be medicated, ignorance can be educated - but there is no cure for stupid..."
Norm, I've often thought about how to incorporate rubber mounts or bushes into a "new" designed deck, but haven't come up with a satisfactory way of making it look factory. God knows my 33 could have done with some, the deck is cracked AND warped. And it is solid!
I don't collect mowers. I just require Multiple Mowing Solutions™.
The last thing we want here is to promote myth making.
I do concur.
Quote
Grumpy - the most senior engineer to have appeared on these forums - dispelled the myth of horizontal versus sloper.
How any engine - in any configuration - avoids vibration must go to design.
Slopers are not inherently more vibration free than uprights.
For sure.
Quote
Simple test: rotate an upright 45 degree and note what happens. Rotate a sloper to upright and not what happens. Rotate a vertical shaft engine 45 degree and note what happens.
From what Grumpy told me - zilch! The vibration characteristics stay with the particular design; not its orientation.
Umm, to some extent. It's necessary to take a 'vector analysis engineering' approach here, to accurately visualise the directional nature of the vibrational 'pulses'.
Quote
Any ideas?
Yes; in this case derived from Phil Irving's books 'Motorcycle Engineering' and 'Tuning for Speed' - the sections on engine balancing.
He says that it's inherently not possible to achieve 'perfect balance' in a single cylinder engine of any configuration.
I'm sure you'd agree that Phil really did 'know his onions' in this field.
Cheers, Gadge
"ODK Mods can explain it to you, but they can't understand it for you..."
"Crazy can be medicated, ignorance can be educated - but there is no cure for stupid..."
Consensus seems to be that 3mm "u" shaped steel welded under the deck in the same orientation as the rails, with cutouts around bolt holes, etc. does a good job. You must ensure your existing rails are dead level and straight before you attempt any welding. A self aligning PTO bearing will absorb some error here, but shouldn't be used to excuse poor workmanship. As the last bead I ran was two decades ago, it's be handing it to a professional who knew what they were doing!
You can go nuts and get the whole thing blasted and repainted. Replace all the fasteners. New bearing housings and a new cutting cylinder and front roller. If you want a functional mower for minimum dollars, I'd do steps 1-3 as outlined previously. If you have any spare cash afterwards, then get a new motor. It transforms the machine. Unless you want a period correct machine, then for less than $300 it's almost a no brainer. If your current engine is a Briggs and Stratton, look on the air shroud. You should see "MODEL TYPE CODE" stamped into it, with corresponding numbers. You can date the engine by the CODE number.
Edit: they came standard with either a Kirby Lausen (Tecumseh licence-built in Australia) or a Briggs.
Originally Posted by Mystyler
Tonz,
Consensus seems to be that 3mm "u" shaped steel welded under the deck in the same orientation as the rails, with cutouts around bolt holes, etc. does a good job. You must ensure your existing rails are dead level and straight before you attempt any welding. A self aligning PTO bearing will absorb some error here, but shouldn't be used to excuse poor workmanship. As the last bead I ran was two decades ago, it's be handing it to a professional who knew what they were doing!
You can go nuts and get the whole thing blasted and repainted. Replace all the fasteners. New bearing housings and a new cutting cylinder and front roller. If you want a functional mower for minimum dollars, I'd do steps 1-3 as outlined previously. If you have any spare cash afterwards, then get a new motor. It transforms the machine. Unless you want a period correct machine, then for less than $300 it's almost a no brainer. If your current engine is a Briggs and Stratton, look on the air shroud. You should see "MODEL TYPE CODE" stamped into it, with corresponding numbers. You can date the engine by the CODE number.
Edit: they came standard with either a Kirby Lausen (Tecumseh licence-built in Australia) or a Briggs.
Thx Mystyler I will gather some parts pricing and see an engineer about some welding and see what cost it comes to make a decision
Hi Gadge, Phil knew his stuff that is for sure. The thing is that it does make a difference if you transfer the force in a different direction so that it tends to work with the machine. I know this is a bit off but the difference in the way a 2 stroke Victa transmits its forces is completely different if it is in the north/south configuration compared to the east/west ones are
For sure. Irving does point out that the 'plane' in which the vibration occurs is important.
And compare these to the 'Victa 500 Twin', which had by far the best inherent balance of any engine Victa used. Especially since it was a 'boxer twingle', with both barrels firing at the same time.
Edit: Anyway Misstonz, apologies for our meanderings down a technical sidetrack here.
The upshot is, that a modern 'sloper Briggs' will be much kinder to your SB45 chassis than an older 'vertical cylinder' model.
Last edited by Gadge; 01/05/2005:20 PM. Reason: Restore thread to original track
Cheers, Gadge
"ODK Mods can explain it to you, but they can't understand it for you..."
"Crazy can be medicated, ignorance can be educated - but there is no cure for stupid..."
Hi Mystyler, The only way you could rubber mount the motor would be when you were doing a rail replacement because you have to lower the rail by the thickness of the insertion rubber. The only reason I mentioned it here is that the OP has to replace the rails and still wants to use the original motor so this would certainly help the situation
So in the end, there is the "Jones Gusset repair method" that's been well discussed on this forum or alternatively send the bare chassis to Shane in WA to completely replace the rails with 3mm thick copies that will last the life of the machine and thus still look perfectly original. Shane does a superb job in this field and never seems to be short of incoming work.
The reason why these new generation Briggs engines are so popular is that they are so much kinder on the original twin railers or ones that have only been zapped up with a mig without any reinforcement done underneath and that speaks volumes here in end costing of a machine being rebuilt in this current Model 45 climate.
Just a word on "Thumpers"..................the reason why bowling clubs etc. used electric mowers opposed to petrol powered units is for the same reason that these rails are failing and that's from the thumping effect that these mowers would have on the greens surface and is the same effect that the rails are being subjected to.
A bowling surface needs to be like a Snooker table and not like a corrugated country dirt road which is what a single piston petrol engine mower would inflict upon the surface, as such electric motors don't create this issue and are the preferred method.
Regardless of all of the above the current Briggs Slopers are being sold at a very affordable price, are much smoother running and seem to be very reliable as well, thus they have become the new benchmark for our much loved 45's.
Cheers, BB.
Below is a good example of the "Jones Gusset repair" method employed.
Last edited by Bonnar_Bloke; 03/05/2008:39 PM. Reason: Added example image
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
Thanks guys - yeah i was looking to make an offer on the machine. given what we have found out about the machine, the mate who owns it is looking to remove the motor for a go cart or similar and not sure about the rest. If i can get the frame for nix it might be worth looking at.
