OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Walk Behind Lawn Mower Frames Reel Lawn Mowers, Atco & Villiers etc. Reel Mower ID: [1952 Atco]

Hi,
I was wondering if any one out there could give me any information about a mower which I collected off from the kerb. I cannot find any identifying marks on it which would give me a clue on which forum to search.

I am guessing that it is 2 stroke
How would you start it? I cannot see any where for a crank handle or pull rope. I have a vague recollection that with some of the older stuff you wrapped a leather strap around the shaft. I may need to get the safety people to look the other way.

Would it have come with a grass catcher originally?


Generally it looks as though it has had little use which probably means they could never get it started. The motor turns over freely without making any grinding or scraping noises, but compression is a bit light.

Hi Byomarimba

I am not 100% sure about this, but I think you may have a ATCO Lightweight of a roughly 1950-54 vintage.

The way you start it is a kick starter - you still have that bit. Its just to the right of the exhaust.

Here is a good picture of the starter

And this is a video of the mower from youtube

I don't know if it had a catcher

Regards
Tyler

Thanks Tyler, and thanks to Cyber Jack for putting up the information.
Very sharp of you to notice the kick start in the photograph. I knew that is what it was but it is missing the drive gear off from the magneto end which is what threw me.
No doubt someone has had it apart and gave up on it. I think I will go back and knock on the door on the off chance that they have it.

G'day Tyler and Byomarimba

Yep a post WWII Atco.
The quintessential typical British lawnmower.
A popular model from the late 1940s and the whole of the 1950s.

Hopefully the id tag will be under paint.

https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/67725/atco-perths-old-atco-dealership.html

Cheers
------------------------
Jack

I went back and knocked on the door but the lady who answered insisted it was not theirs. I am also missing the spring mechanism for the kick starter. The previous owner has filled up the space on the shaft where the kick start would have gone with washers. I noticed on the u-tube videos which Tyler linked me to that some of them started with a crank handle. I am guessing that the magneto cover/flywheel may have been changed over at sometime. Not a big problem in any case as I have always preferred an electric start.

I flushed the fuel tank and carburettor with clean fuel, pumped the primer a couple of times and I could see fuel coming out the air intake. With an electric drill and a 13/16 socket I gave it a spin.

It started almost instantly and I could not believe how smoothly it ran, I was expecting a lot of popping and jumping off from the bench.

Ran for about 40 seconds and quit. Tried a few things with the fuel and eventually got around to spark. None at all.

Pulled the flywheel off and blew everything out with a little air. That's when I realised that there is no keyway on the driveshaft. I did find some marks on the flywheel and the magneto housing so lined them up with tdc and reassembled. (I will try to post a photo of these later) Still no spark. I believe that even if I have the timing way out, if everything else is working correctly I should get a spark.


I will try to find the time to pull the flywheel off tomorrow and see if I can test any of the components. I think I would need to be pretty lucky to replace any of them if they are faulty. Any suggestions are welcome

I reckon its probably just the points - bit of dirt and muck got in them after the vibrations knocked the gunk around.
Basically, scrape any gunk from the points, clean the points with a bit of 1000 grit sand paper (or points file if you have one), set the points at somewhere around .025 inch, add a bit of oil to the felt pad (or a smear of grease on the cam).

Then disconnect and clean all the connections - probably the connector from the condenser, and the points connections.

Get the rust off the coil (mainly the poles), and the magnets on the flywheel.

The fact that it did run for 40 seconds is a good sign - hopefully it isn't the coil.

Regards
Tyler

I was thinking you could try an ignition module but then we have the negative, positive configuration so that is probably not an option. You will probably have to make up a keyway so that the magnets are in the correct position otherwise you won't get a spark. If you have the keyway slots pretty well lined up and still no sign of spark then you will have to dig deeper

Thanks Norm and Tyler,
I was thinking electronic ignition would be the way to go as well. Could be $20.00 well spent and if it does not work on this one it will on the next.

I thought that even if it was way out of time if the points and coil are working I would still get a spark. but in hindsight possibly not

I have attached a photo of what I am using for timing, the mark on the flywheel looks kind off factory but unfortunately the ones on the magneto housing look a little coal chisel after the fact. It does not help that there are several. I am lining the arrow on the flywheel up with the largest mark at TDC. This would be easy to check if I knew where the magnet on the flywheel should be when the motor is at TDC. There is a post from A Paul_C about timing back in 2015, but no photos, maybe he could have a look at it.

This motor seems to be a little different to ones I have encountered in the past as the points are open most of the time and only close for a short time. There is a flat spot on the cam instead of a lump? Alternatively knowing when the points will open or close in relation to TDC would help.


Tyler you mention a condenser, is it possible that there is a miniature one hidden in behind the points? There is not enough room in there for any condenser I have ever seen before but there is a spare wire that comes off from points (like you would expect to go to a condenser) and goes behind or into the magneto housing.


I have done a few readings with my $2.00 multi meter. No point in getting overcapitalised as I have no idea what I am doing with it. With the meter set on 2000k measuring from the spark plug lead to the coil (part with the red line) you get a reading of 4.7
Measuring from the spark plug lead to the points (green dot) with the points closed the same reading of 4.7 with the points open a reading of 1.
Testing from the green dot to earth with the points closed a reading of 0. With the points open a reading of 1

As I said I don't know what I am doing here, but I think that suggests that the coil is OK and the points are wired correctly.

I think the most likely explanation is a rookie mistake I just have not realised it yet.

Thanks to all for your help so far.

What locates the flywheel to the crank? The magnets have to pass the coil at exactly the correct point.With a module I think it should fire at any point whereas with the points, they need to open at the correct time the magnets pass the coil. Problem is with the modules some of these ignitions are pos earth and others are neg earth. I can't help on that point. Some points work as you describe open for most of the revolution, close briefly, then open again to create the spark

Hi All,

This looks to be a 1952 Atco - the clutch and exhaust type were only matched for one season. The flywheel and cover are correct to the model - the only thing missing is the starter gear mechanism and bolt. Timing for these is relatively easy -

Points open at 5/32 before TDC. Points are set at 0.015"

Bring the piston to the top of its stroke, put the flywheel on start to do up the captive nut, line up the two arrows (one on the flywheel and the other is on a cast boss on the armature plate) and do up the captive nut. As these are a hammertite fit you will need to put a ring spanner on the captive nut and a open ended spanner on the clutch drive dog, so that you can give the ring spanner a couple of taps with a hammer. Do not let the flywheel or crank move at this point or the timing will be out.

Points are adjusted with the flywheel cover plate removed. Be careful not to damage the screws as they are difficult to remove once damaged and replacements can be a bit hard to get.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Sir Chook

Sounds like Sir Chook knows what he is doing (I was trying to think of a chicken pun, but couldn't)

I would think there would have to be a condenser, otherwise the points would arc and bugger up very quickly.
Either there is a condenser (capacitor of some description) hidden back there, or we have inadvertently found why it ran for 40 seconds, then lost spark

A reading of 1 (infinite resistance) with the points open sounds about right.

$2 multi meters are the ones to get - I bought a $70 one from SCA (on special) because it was a Stanley - turns out Stanley USA allowed their branding to be used by a California Company TFT (Total, something, Tools) who make the cheapest crappiest tools in mexico and china.
Now I refer to that multimeter (with tach and other settings) as a Totally F***** Tool - dead 1 year and 14 days from purchase.
SCA wouldn't help, so I emailed Stanley, and they told me It's not theirs.

G'day folks,
Yep, the condenser is located underneath the points housing on these.

Here's a good stepwise magneto how-to from the UK Old Lawnmower Club; https://www.oldlawnmowerclub.co.uk/technical/villiers/magrebuildhome

Thanks Tyler, Sir Chook and Gadge,
I never would have found the timing mark that Sir Chook told me about without the video from Gadge. I finally took the magneto plate off and there it was, who would have thought to look on the bottom.

Unfortunately still no spark, with the armature plate off I found the condenser and as far as I can tell with my multi meter it is working (has a resistance). The only problems I have found is the insulation on the wire from the points to the coil is in very poor condition, and there are grummets where that wire, and the one to the condenser, pass through the housing which were out of place. I put a sleeve around the wire and relocated the grummets reassembled but no luck. (I think if there was a problem here it would have showed up when I was trying to test the coil)

Thought I may have hit the jackpot when I did not seem to be getting a circuit through the spark plug lead, but after taking it off and testing it reassembling and testing again still no spark.

I have pulled it apart again and I will shrink wrap the bare wire. The sleeve I made was a little big and putting some pressure on the insulation shield under the points, I did not do it first time as they are soldered and my soldering is worse then my welding. (It's a shame araldite does not make a good conductor) I think I am clutching at straws here. With the points closed I have the same resistance from the points to the spark plug lead as I have through the coil, and with them open no circuit. However l am testing with very little volts when the actual spark will have a pretty high voltage and able to leap small gaps

If it had not run for a few seconds I would be tempted to turn the magneto plate over, I did see one u-tube video where the spark plug lead appeared to be coming out of the back (exhaust side) of the engine.


About the only thing I have left is the magnet in the flywheel is not as strong as I would expect and may have a chip broken out of it (photo), I would expect these things to possibly reduce the spark but not cancel it, it did run for awhile and I did not find any loose metal bits. when I took it apart.


I will be struggling to get back to this for a few days it's already cutting into my nap time. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Hi Byomarimba,

At this point, if you are fairly certain that you are getting good readings for the coil and condenser (following the details on the Old Lawnmower Club site), I can only think of a couple of things that have caused a similar issue for me.

Check the coil end of the HT lead to ensure that the terminal is getting good connection and once assembled check the terminal pad is seating properly.

When you stripped down the points box did everything go back the way it was? The reason that I say this is that there is an insulating washer that sits under one of the screws (I cannot remember which at the minute). If this does not go in or in the right location, you will not get a spark.

I would also further investigate the insulation that you have discussed. If there is anything distorting the insulating pad this can cause it to not insulate properly.

How fast are you spinning the flywheel when testing for a spark? Sometimes if the engine is being turned over slowly it will not get enough charge up to give a spark, this can be the case where the magnet is a bit weak.

Hope that you find the issue soon.

Cheers,

Sir Chook

Thanks Sir Chook,
Hope you had a Merry Christmas.
I had doubts about the condenser and checked it again when I removed it completely. I could not get the same results as before or for that matter any encouraging readings this time so I took it to an auto electrician who said it is stuffed.
It does not have any information on it other then Villiers in large print.
I think it would be easy to retrofit a standard capacitor if I knew how many farads (or how they measure these things) I need. There is a crowd over here with a whole warehouse full of Bosch ignition pieces, they turned it over about 200 times and said without more information they could not help me.


Thanks again,

Hi Byomarimba

Have a look at this link; as well as this one.
Might just be a case of visual identify, then delve deeper - fortunately it seems Villiers, JAP, and BSA Matchless engines have similar condensors in many cases.

Haven't had much to do with Villiers, so I can't comment on the farads.

Edit, had a look at this other link, seems like the condensor is a m1750 model - no idea how to convert to Bosch though. Anyway, most bosch would be complete different shape

Hi Byomarimba,

Thank you - I did have a lovely Christmas and hope that you did too.

Unfortunately none of my manuals give the specs of the condenser, just that it is part number M1750. They are still being made so it is possible to get a brand new one. The last one that I replaced cost about $18. You may be able to get one through Vaces in NSW, otherwise there are a number of suppliers in the UK that can supply them.

Kind regards,

Sir Chook

Thanks Tyler and Sir Chook,
I think I will take the coil into an auto electrician and get it checked just so I am confident that the condenser is the only problem. There will not be one open until next year. I did go back to the Bosch warehouse armed with the additional information that you have given me. I got a different person who was pretty definite that they could not help me. They only do auto parts. I remember now that they could not help me with an Australian made Clark forklift a few years back as well. All of their parts must me BMW's Audis and Mercedes so if they had one I would not be able to afford it any how.

I have sent a message to Vaces if he does not come through the English sites which Tyler supplied have new ones I just need to be patient.

Thanks for your help again and I will keep you posted next year.

Happy New Year

An alternative to try is an ignition module but you would need to know if the coil is pos or neg earth. Maybe somebody knows that. I have no idea but the English had this fascination in vehicles of being pos earth. I'm not sure when they decided to comply with the rest of the world and switch to neg earth.

Thanks Norm,
I have tried a universal electronic ignition module on it and did not get any results with positive or negative earth. I am a little suspicious about the module itself, it arrived in an opened package with no instructions and the supplier phoned me earlier to tell me it was missing the connection wires but they would include some. The sceptic in me wonders if it had not been returned to them not working once before. I have put one on an old B&S engine that a friend of mine has. If I have time next time I am at his place I will swap them and see if it works. I have used them twice before can't understand how they work or why it does not work this time, but I have been told that they don't work on everything.

In the mean time I got a message back from VACES (Vintage Air Cooled Engine Spares, vaces.com.au) they have a condenser and will post it to me, from NSW. I would expect it to arrive about the 8th so will keep you posted.