I just picked up this little beauty a few days ago for $50.00 and have plans to restore it as best to my capabilities to mow my back lawn. Any info would be great, from what I have learnt so far in the forum it seems to be a mid 70's change over twin rail with a Kirby engine. It was listed as a non goer but on Inspection I noticed the throttle cable is broken at the handlebar end where it connects to the throttle leaver, so I assume it's an easy fix. Everything else looks pretty good besides the paint and a service, but I'm not familiar with the Kirby engine I have read that they weren't as good as the Briggs and having plenty of knowledge with Briggs Aswell as 3x 60102 2hp engines ready to go should I replace the Kirby or should I keep the deck matched with the original engine, what's everyone's opinion in re-birthing the engine the one I want to use is a 1979 60102 will it still be classed as original or does it mess up the space time continual.
You have a late 1975 built Model 45 with either a HK25 or H4 power plant fitted.
Now I know you've read a bit about the Kirby engine and I also do not hold it in high regard either, but in saying that if it runs ok then I'd hang on to it until something more terminal happens. I had an original HK30 on my 20 inch machine until it went pear shape and then I replaced it with a much later model Briggs which isn't that good vibration wise either. I am going to replace it with a current I/C Briggs or Honda if one becomes available cheap enough.
I notice you have the engine removed atm and while you have this situation I would have a really good look at the engine mounting rails and inspect closely for any fatigue fractures. I will say that with it being a 14 inch machine it will probably have none but then again it's good to check while you've got the power plant removed.
If you are in the unfortunate situation that you do then it is imperative that this issue be rectified before going any further.
Let me know how the rails are before we proceed any further.
Cheers, BB.
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
G'day Bon_Scott That's a pretty clever user name there, paying homage to AUS music and ... mowers!
Yes, for about a season or two in the mid-1970s, SB used a black chaincase and handle plate. My best guess here is the 1974-75 season, with Kirby, black bits and older logo.
I think the Kirby was discontinued for the 1975-76 season and the black bits were discontinued for the 1976-77 season. That's about right.
I'm not familiar with the Kirby engine I have read that they weren't as good as the Briggs
Folks have said that ... but it goes to personal preference.
The Kirby has a PTO side ball-bearing and a cast iron sleeve. The Briggs spec (for the 45) did not.
The Kirby did appear to have had a finicky carburettor and governor spring system. I suspect poor availability of Kirby parts is a contributing factor as to reputation now.
You're lucky you have an easy choice here - a change of engine requires no substantive modification. Keep the Kirby as a back-up option for originality down the track. I do not feel the space-time continuum will be disrupted anymore than the name Bon Scott.
Please keep us informed.
bon app�tit ---------------------------------- Jack
p.s. I now see Mod BB has replied. I think we are generally in agreement.
The rails look good from what I can see, I'm still in two frames of mind about changing the engine. The Kirby is a H4-4A any idea what HP can't find it anywhere, it looks like a bigger engine than the Briggs.
That's my main worries with the Kirby is sourcing parts, besides gaskets I don't think it would need anything major replacing just a carby clean and some gap adjustments and a valve lap. I like the fact that it's got a cast iron sleeve and I'm thinking the HP might be slightly larger than my Briggs. I might just do a minor rebuild service of the Kirby rather than a full teardown just to see what it's like as I would rather put more money time and effort into the deck and blades, the guy I bought it from said the engine ran good until it wouldn't start. Who knows the Kirby might win me over once I have a look at it.
I think my handle plate and chain cover are just rusty not black, they look to have green paint under the rust. The rest of the paint work dident rust cause it was covered in years of engine oil, it looked alot worse before I gave it a clean
I think that the main issue with the Kirby is the butterfly in the carby which gets worn and thus allows air to get into the system unmetered, thus this makes the engine hunt up and down. Apart from that they are generally fairly bullet-proof if running well. Another problem is that they'll profusely leak oil out of the Governor shaft outlet bush which becomes a real pain.
You H4 is a 2.5 HP engine which is more than enough power for a 14 inch Scotty. The problem with most of the replacement engines available nowadays is that they are huge on a 14 inch machine. Now if you had a 20 inch it wouldn't be that much of an issue but the 14 is a rather compact little machine. Also the handle bar assembly would interfere with the current engines as they are built more rear ward opposed to the older engines that were built more upright or even forward as was the case with the Kirby power plant with forward facing fuel tank.
Personally I would spend some time with the current engine and see what you can come up with there opposed to spending lots of cash on another engine.
Cheers, BB.
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
I decided to have a quick look at the Kirby and thought I could give it a bit of a service, but it was that poorly looked after that it's now in a tear down stage. I don't think it had ever been serviced or cleaned, it had alot of carbon build up on the valves, piston and some light scoring on the bore. It actually cleaned up quiet well considering the condition it was in, so far I have lightly honned the cylinder and cleaned off some paint and rust. The only issues I'm having so far is trying to remove the valves, is there a trick to removing them, it looks like it's got a solid C clip. Also is there any info on valve clearance and ring end gap? going by the amount of carbon I would say the rings are worn. I can see why most people just replace the Kirby it's not as strait forward as a Briggs or Honda and parts and info isent easy to come by, what's the eqivilant model in the U.S just curious if I can get parts and how much.
Thanks for the info, as I suspected the rings are shot. I might just clean up whats left and put it back together, looks like I will be using the Briggs. Once I finish the restoration I might just tinker with the kirby, just for curiosity anyone know the part number for the rings.
I'm almost certain that you will have to use an earlier 60102 Briggs Engine as the current ones just won't fit without making alterations to the lower handle bar set up or adding those adaptor plates to push the lower section out and away from the chassis mounts.
The 60102 uses the shallow fuel tank which is the issue that prevents you using an 80202 engine which was the 3 Hp orange painted engine that was used on the later twin railed 17 and 20 inch Scotty's.
Cheers, BB.
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
These are the 2 I had sitting in the garage gathering dust they work fine they used to sit on my 2 main Rover edgers untill I found a couple of 80202 3hp engines and did the swap. I would love to put one of the 80202 on the SB45 but they're 3/4" shafts plus now I learnt that the tanks won't fit either, the 2hp Briggs probably just need a service and a paint i know I changed all the gaskets a few years back. I think I will use the 78' model as it's got the choke on the lever where as the 81' model is a manual pull choke. I'm still sentimental about the original Kirby engine, I would still love to get it working even if it's put aside and retired, those score marks look worse than they feel. Still might throw some new rings in it cause I can even if it burns a little oil but still run the Briggs on the SB45.
What's wrong with using that 60102 in the second photo as it will fit straight on and with the manual choke you will be able to utilise the original throttle cable. Only the absolute purists will know there's been an engine swap.
If you can get the original Kirby going again in a serviceable state then please do by all means as there's nothing wrong with them when they are running reliably, it's just when they don't it becomes an issue..
Cheers, BB.
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
I most likely will use a 60102 however I managed to find a set of NOS rings Online for $20.00, for what I paid for the whole machine I can spare $20.00 to give the old Kirby a second chance considering it's been going for 43 years and it's put up with a beating. Everything else seemed to clean up well and looks good including carby and valves. If I use the Briggs I will just clean it up strip the paint and re-paint it.
