OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Walk Behind Lawn Mower Frames Question On Scott Bonnar Cylinder Mowers Question on Supercut Mower

Hi Deejay,

I'm starting to think that this may be the case but with the former holes being so squeaky clean and not showing any signs of previous usage made me suspicious that maybe there were two options for the carry bar. Who knows, probably another one of life's little mysteries I guess. I'll probably zap up the holes with a mig prior to repainting.

Also received two Villiers Engines this morning which will give me the opportunity to return my 412 back to original and toss that internally rusty Kirby Lauson tank to the @%$#house.

A huge thank you to the donor who knows who he is.

This post is more so for Grumpy,


Well I've spent hours today trying in vain to get this Villiers 412 started and believe me I've checked everything and still it won't even attempt to cough into life.

I've got spark at the top of the plug (got a pulse from the lead with very minimal cranking)
I've got compression (valves are both fully functional)
I've got fuel (removed carby and inlet is wet)even substituted the carby with another identical unit from a working motor

But, I still don't have any combustion which equates to vroom vroom !

The only thing that I can think is that its a plug issue, but I put a second plug into it and still nothing, poured a bit of fuel in through the plug hole as you can't throw it down this type of carby and still nada, zip, nothing.

I must admit this ones got me beat. The machine is pretty original so nothing has been substituted apart from the original petrol tank which I've managed to get one and return it back to original, it now looks more of the period of which the engine is.

BTW I've dated this Supercut at about 1968 as its painted in exactly the same variant of Hammertone Green as my original 14' Model 45 that is fitted with the grey 2HP engine and that was made in 68.

Any ideas as I'm really scratching for them at the moment. I'll have to say that I'm more of a Briggs man and that Villiers are all new to me but the basic principles are still the same with the 3 elements, Fuel, compression and Spark.

Cheers,
BB

BB,

Did you check the flywheel key is not damaged.

I agree that what we need to see is fuel, compression and spark. At the moment you've reported electrical activity in the plug lead at slow rotation of the engine, but you haven't reported spark. I suggest you make an actual spark test, with a device like this:


Connect the plug lead to the top of the spark plug, and attach the clamp to a metal part of the engine. Pull the starter in the normal way.

Begin by using the actual spark plug from the engine, with its normal gap. If you get a steady series of blue sparks across the gap, things are not looking infinitely bad, but it may still not run well. The second step is to fit a comparison spark plug (usually an old one formerly used in a car), with the gap set to 0.060". This slightly larger gap is to simulate the higher air pressure in the cylinder at full compression. If it will spark the original plug at standard gap, the engine will probably start. If it will spark the comparison plug at 0.060", it will probably run more or less decently.

You can do the test without making the tester, just by holding the metal body of the plug against the engine while you pull the starter. It isn't as convenient, but you can get the job done that way if you play with engines so rarely that it isn't worth setting up to do it conveniently.

Hi Grumpy and Bruce,

Firstly thank you for your input as it has pretty much confirmed what I have still as a doubt, the spark itself. I love that custom made tool which is good for a single operator. What you've suggested is what I'm going to do this morning and I'll advise you guys of what the result is.

Cheers,
BB

Hi Guys,

Well its turned out to be an unsatisfactory spark issue as I couldn't get a visible spark from the lead across the gap to the plug using chicken pliers. This was achieved using a second operator to crank the engine over at a rapid rate. The following pictures are the donor part to replace the culprit and the donor engine prior to total strip down. The donor engine is a C12A-01-01 and has nothing more than worn rings but an absolute lovely bore and no issues crank or bearing issues at all.

Now I've read quite a bit about the timing issues and the correct placement of the Ignition assembly when putting a Villiers back together again. Is there any workshop manual for the 412 Engine or similar in the manuals database ? as I'd like to read all about it before pulling the 412 apart and doing the substitution.

Anyway here are some photos of the Ignition assembly and the engine after the initial removal and basic external componentry, such as Cowling, Carby, Exhaust etc.








I will say that I would like to obtain another Ignition assembly to replace the one I've taken from this engine as its in just to good a condition to scrap and with the rings replaced and the bore lightly honed / valves refaced it will be a great substitute for the 412 should it go bang at some later stage. Honestly these little Villiers are a pretty well built long engine from a mechanics point of view.

Cheers,
BB

I've always thought Villiers made some of the best-built unusable engines I've ever found, BB. Mechanically, they'd last a long time (though of course in the two strokes the piston rings wear pretty fast, due either to poor ring design or poor lubrication.) The main point is, however long they lasted it seemed even longer due to hard starting, and unreliable carburetors and ignition systems. Essentially, I'd say they had the British engine disease. That probably only adds to their charm to a collector, though.

As I've just posted in another thread, there is nothing on those engines in the manuals section. If you contact Bruce he may be able to get something, I can't guess the outcome there.

Well, I've today managed to remove the original engine from the Supercut to replace the Magneto assembly and after initial removal and removal of the cowling I knew that I was already in trouble as the flywheel was totally different from the C12A.

Anyway I now have a magneto assembly to refit back into the C12 as it's useless to the 412. I'll now replace the worn rings in the C12A and get it back to working order as it was merely a smoking engine and nothing more.

Now I've taken a heap of photos which appear underneath this write up starting with a filthy long engine and ending up reasonably clean and back together without the crook magneto.

I guess what I need to do now is get the following pictured magneto repaired and I have no idea as to who to take it to as that's not my specialty area.

Any advise would be super helpful, I'm located in Adelaide if that's any help and I'm happy to ship it interstate for repairs, that's if the parts are even still available.






The now faulty correct unit that requires repairs




This is the engine just reassembled until the magneto is repaired. The engine will be put back together and just gotten into a running state prior to us moving and getting my new workshop up and going where it will then be fully cleaned and repainted prior to refitting to the fully refurbished Supercut chassis.



One thing I've noticed during cleaning process, and that is that the engines were originally painted a more iridescent green at the Ballarat Villiers Factory and then just repainted over the top by Scott Bonnar with their own corporate hammertone green of the late 1960's to bring it in line with the chassis colour to make it all look like their own, something they no longer did once they got to using Kirby Lausons and Briggs & Stratton units.

This is quite evident if you look at the last shot showing the flywheel and rope starter where I've not cleaned all the paint back as yet but will be done prior to repainting SB Green.

Must admit the tray on the ute has become quite good to use as a workbench for the time being, but I'm looking forward to getting both my engineering benches back with the 6 inch Offset Dawn Vice, man I miss that vice and the soft jaws.

Cheers,
BB.

UPDATE !

Well the Villiers 412 H2 which is the original engine on this Supercut has finally been run for probably the first time in about 20 years. I first intention was to get the Villiers operable again and then re-fit it back onto the machine prior to moving house which is happening within the next month, so a full restoration is a little way off for now, but I will after I sort the carby issue out with it (full internal cleaning and blow out)make a video of it being crank started / running and post it up for all the ODK members that helped me along the way to see the fruits of their help and advise.

BTW has anyone ever experimented with using any glass wool (or similar) inside the exhaust box on a Villiers to quieten them down a bit more as an empty cast iron box isn't the quietest muffler ever made.

Meanwhile here is a shot of it with it's correct Petrol tank being retro fitted back onto it (care of a C12 engine I have) from that rusty old Kirby Lauson tank that was on it when I took delivery of it (see earlier photos in this thread)
I guess that I'll now be looking for a tank for the C12 as that motor is way too good to scrap.
You'll probably notice a few items on the 412 have been painted in cold galv which is not how they are going to remain as the whole machine and engine will be painted back in its original livery just as it would've been when it left the factory.



Cheers for now,
BB.

I have just obtained one of these SC and was wondering how to change the twin belts i have no idea and i am a bit stuck which side of the shaft is the removal side

i have just picked up this same version runs weel but needs new drive belts any ideas where to start in replace them

Hi uncle,

It's all very simple on those, just loosen the engine mounting bolts and slide the engine forward, slide the belts off and replace and then move the engine backwards to tension up the belts evenly.

Cheers,
BB.

Hi thanks for that but how do i get them over the bottom shaft how does it come out i have each end undone but cant move the shaft sideways

Yep, I would have thought that the long countershaft may have to come right out, on that model.

But there might be a way to avoid that.

If the crank handle socket/nut is removed from the right hand [from normal operator's position] end of the countershaft, that will allow removal of the shaft bearing housing. Some pics of that end, in an old thread are HERE.

With that out of the way, there just might be enough clearance between the shaft, and the hole in the sideplate, to slip the belts out through the hole one at a time, once they are off the pulleys.

By the way, with a dual belt drive like this one, ask for a 'matched pair' of belts, when you go in to order them. That is, same brand and preferably same production batch.
Any worthwhile bearing supply place should be able to do this. It's standard practice for industrial drives, to maximise belt life - ensures they are the exact same size, and will stretch at the same rate.

Hi uncle and Mod Gadge,

I must've had a seniors moment yesterday as I totally forgot about the counterbalance drive shaft, thus why I prefer the chain driven models where you can split the chain open.

Cheers,
BB

I could see that coming but far be it from me to offer advice on something I have no idea about

thanks Gadge

So i have stripped back the last last part and not sure if there is a special tool required to hold the inside and if it is left hand or right hand to get it off all i know is it is decades tight , i thought there were grub screws on the inside holes bout they are just short holes with nothing in them any tricks to this bit

It will need to go in the opposite direction to the normal rotation of that countershaft, to undo it.

Start by giving the hollow end of the nut a good shot of decent penetrating lubricant, and let it soak in for 24 hours.
I.e. NOT WD-40 - I recommend any of Penetrene, CRC 5-56, Inox/Lanox, of the readily available brands. A home brew of 50/50 Acetone and Automatic Transmission Fluid works pretty well, too

If that inner collar doesn't have set screws, most likely it has an internal key to locate it. In that case, the holes are to take a c-hook pin spanner, to hold the shaft still. While these can be bought, it wouldn't be worth it for one job.

I would find a pin punch that's a neat fit in the hole, and support it at the end nearest the collar with a piece of hard wood, braced against some nearby part of the mower frame, in the same plane as the collar. Wood is easy to cut to the required length.

As for the nut, the through hole will take a steel rod of the appropriate diameter.

Please DO NOT consider using serrated jaw pipe wrenches, or pliers like Vise-Grips, here!