OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Identification of Particular Machines POPE: Clinton Powered - ID?

Hey all,

I'm currently negotiating a deal on this pope




It has a Clinton 4 stroke and the bloke recons the old bloke he got it from said he bought it new from Harris scarfe in 1956 (this seems wrong to me - I would have thought around 64-66) and it originally had a wind up handle that broke so the pull start was used from a 2 stroke ...

Anyone have any info on this one (I'm looking in your direction Jack ....)

Thanks for any help.

Pete

Hello Pete

OOH ... that is a super-rare 320-07.
This is the first 4-stroke Pope. I have never seen one.

It cannot date to 1956, but it is earlier than you think Pete.
It would date from between 1960 to early 1962. No later.
That odd air cleaner is all Clinton... and with a catcher!

Have a look at Part One Chassis here:
https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=60790

Hope this helps.
-----------------------------------
JACK

Awesome. Thanks Jack,

I knew you'd know something. As always an informed response. If I can secure the deal I'll post some pictures of it when I get it. It's from the same bloke that I got the Turner-morrison from. God knows where he gets his machines from but a good bloke to have on side!

Pete

Just revised my offer. Think he'll take it. This time tomorrow I should be the proud owner all things going the way they're planned!

Pete

That's good news!

Your 'operative' is sure producing the goods.
This is a great find!

"...all things going the way they're planned!"


JACK

So got it home now ...

It looks quite good after a clean up. Won't get a chance to test it out until at least Saturday so if I get a chance then I'll try and get a video of it running (IF it runs of course)








Not sure about the muffler - it's clearly been repaired at some point but is it original?

The throttle control is interesting as is the adjustable front lip.

Pete.

Pictures of the throttle control





Pete

Hello Pete

I've got to say that this is a first for me.
This Pope is super-rare.

Introduced, I think, just one year after the first Australian 4-strokes (Turner).
This is as original as it gets.

I need to explain something here:

This is a fully imported Clinton.
By 1962, Pope aesthetically changed the cowling, tank and filter to make it
less 'square' and more in keeping with contemporary looks. I have not found any
advertisement - yet - of these first 4-strokes. For whatever reason, Pope seem
to have not advertised this 4-stroke side-by-side with their own rotary valve 2-stroke.

This has a very unique intake filter that was changed to Pope's own design.
You can see that in the engine parts manual (link already given). It also has a
very square looking cowl. Some would say ugly; I say Wow! How unusual.

One of the most interesting, original mowers I've seen from this period.
Pete, thank you for seeing the vision to SAVE IT.

All very Popish.
----------------------------
JACK

hmmmm,

Interesting.

The old bloke is looking around the shed to try find a manual or sales receipt for me. He actually thinks he might have something! Fingers crossed and if he does I'll scan them and post them up here.

Pete

Also this cost me a swap for a self propelled Talon 4 stroke

AND I got a cash repair job out of him on a Chonda ... Good deal I'd say!

Gotta be happy with that

Pete

Nice find!

That recoil starter is a retrofit right enough, though it's still a Pope item, as you've been told. See the Engine Parts List Part 1, in the post CyberJack has linked above.

I've found some Trove ads, that should help with narrowing down the timeframe for this one.

First one is an excerpt from a Waltons NSW ad from 1961, which I'd say would refer to either the 320-07 or 320-09:


Source: The Biz, Fairfield NSW, 29 Nov 1961, p.4. LINK

Second one is from nearly a year later, and clearly refers to the 657-1-9 and 657-1-11 engine type/s:



Source: The Canberra Times, ACT, 19 Oct 1962, p.9. LINK

The distinguishing features are the cowling/fuel tank configuration, and that the earlier 502-01-700 and 502-02-700 engines look to have had plain main bearings, while the 657 series 4-strokes had a ball bearing on the flywheel side, and needle roller on the PTO side. This is touted as the 'new model' in the ad.

Thanks Gadge,

For now I'll take it that this one is a '61 model. Had a crack at starting it last night and found the blade plate was loose. Tightened it up and tried again, It kicked but then the blade plate and boss fell off (Not really sure why it fell off as there is no damage to the thread). It's missing the key. No damage to the keyway just no key anywhere to be seen. Looks the same size as a briggs flywheel key so I'll try one on the weekend and see how it goes.

Pete.

Hello IHWS and Gadge

I think it would have fell off because, with no key, it would have
unscrewed itself (due to inertia in the blade holder).

A Briggs key would not be suitable - as they are an alloy designed for shearing.
I would think a steel key would be the way to go... but I've been wrong before.

Hope this helps.
--------------------------
JACK

Well it lives!

I found a suitable woodruff key in the shed, put it together and pulled a good 15-20 times. Nothing. Not a cough, not a peep then I realised that I hadn't reattached the HT lead

Attached the HT lead, one pull and away it fired. It's only running on start ya bastard at the moment so I need to clean out the carby but looks like it'll be fine once that's sorted.

They sure as anything don't make 'em like they used to!

This one will be cleaned up and stored away in the shed - never to cut any grass in real anger again.

Thanks Gadge and Jack for the help.

I'll try post a video of it running when I get a chance to clean out the carby (Hopefully either Sunday morning or Monday).

Pete

Hello IHWS and MOD Gadge

That's great news!
I'm sorry, I misunderstood your reference to 'Briggs key'.

I think this is a real rare beast - I am of the view Pope wanted to standardise
the 'Pope look' between their 2-stroke and 4-stroke models. I am of the belief
that this first 4-stroke model was only offered for a season, and was not
advertised to the same extent as their 2-strokes (which were heavily advertised).
The 'new look' 4-stroke would be heavily advertised.

We look forward to the video.
----------------------------------------
JACK

No probs. I wasn't very clear. Was a late night post after a busy day at work so didn't word it correctly.

I'm now just trying to find a seller of air filters for it - the poor old sole only has a piece of sponge in it's mouth to keep all the nasty crud out.

I'd love the original impulse starter for it but don't think I'll find one in a hurry!

Pete

G'day folks,

The fit took me to do some research on this air filter, and I've got some useful info.
The original 91791 element [Pope stuck with the Clinton part numbers, which helps] was just a simple block of oiled polyurethane foam.


It's described in a 1961 Clinton Service Bulletin - see attached file. There was a later 1964 element version [in Clinton SB18A], which had an attached rubber sealing flange, but I'd think that wouldn't be easy to reproduce.

So to find a suitable piece of foam, first up I'd have a look at some of the older Briggs one-piece foam elements, to see if there's one which can be cut to suit. Alternatively, contact Uniflow [the makers of Unifilters] to see if they can supply block foam that's fuel-resistant.

Hi Mod Gadgeand IHWS

That's brilliant detective work!
It's nice when these things are found.

Everyone knows about Briggs, and Kirby, but have not heard of Clinton engines
used on AUS lawnmowers. From all accounts - a damn good motor.
Perhaps Pete should nickname it Hillary ...

Great stuff.
-------------------------
JACK

not sure if its still available but maybe 3 years ago i bought open cell foam from a place , made filters for kirbys short round jobbies , cut to length and glued still working well now and one has had a lot of use , sold it in cut to sizes req' and i remember seeing it in sheets maybe 2" 3" thick

Finally found the real homepage for the Clinton doco downloads [they actually reside on a different server to their index]: http://www.clintonengines.us/Home.html