OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Identification of Particular Machines Victa Model 4 Automatic Specifications

The Automatic,Why A Flop?

This whole topic on the Predicta set up still has me baffled as to WHO in their right mind would create such an overkill? "No need for a throttle control",it does it all for you....Blah blah...you still have to push the damn thing and watch out you didnt hit it to hard up against the fence,And dont dare hit the front flap against anything,And how did you actually get the front up close to mow to an edge with an extra 8 inchs of overhang on the front? lols...Did they think we were so lazy we couldnt use a finger to turn up the throttle control when needed? So they make a mechanical govenor with a ridiculous amount of fragile parts
that broke often,and a system that needed adjusting with nearly each mow...This made it easier? Lols. Dont get me wrong its a fantastic looking machine,and I find it quite intriguing technologicaly...But to answer the time old question...Why was it a flop? Too many moving parts,System failure and more work to use it than what it was initially designed to take away. It Looks super Cool But! lols and still one of my Favourites.

Another theory, the Cable/guide in the last 3 photo's Unkie put up, the last one shows a different shape altogether, I wonder if it could have been some sort of tensioner to stop erratic throttle variations? like a sprung peice of steel? dont know, just gripping at straws really, and as I only know of one person with the front flap it would be nice to know exactly how that one worked then it might be easier to make better judements on the other version. I know the basics of how it would work but not the nitty gritty. I agree with you Blue the cable through the height adjuster does not make any sense or even be practical IMO.

No did not power wash but did a bit of cleaning around the others as well as this one and I cannot find any trace of Avocardo anyware.

also after all the hunting around to find the 6 locating tab toe ring, that is whats on the pic of the 200,000 series 1 has the 2 tabs directly to the side, both in front of the blot on tab & 2 at the rear. maybe this one slips in between the clip on and 8 tab bolt on? come on you Utility guys how many Tabs on your toe rings?

Unkie just let us know if this other information is distracting from your time line work as this info can be done at a later date.

No problem at all mate! This is all relevant stuff and helps articulate a broader chronology so post away!

Another image for you guys. This is a detail from a Victa advertising stock photo dating to the early release of the Auto:



Shows some nice details, and you can't get any more accurate an image to be used as a reference for restoration.

And yet further confirmation that all three mowers were on sale at the same time - can only confirm that this one dates to the month of March, 1958. Also, 3,000 mowers produced per week!:

Love that first picture Unkie...Ive got it somewhere but cant find it...Their is another with a pace in a very similar setting running the same way through long grass.
And yes The last Image is perfect!...And your right even more confirmation they ran side by side....
Id go so far as to say Model 4 nearing its completion or last of stock,the model 3 in full swing and the model 5 starting its run... aVery nice and close intersection of all 3! Excelllent and enough id say to make it all but conclusive.. thanks for the Images!. And btw check ya mail...lols you got a pressie..Hopefullly.

I tend to disagree Blue, I feel the add with the 3 above shows the Model 4 Automatic, the model 4 Special with no badge as the first Model 5 had the Special badge,the Special above is like the Model 4 Special I pointed out in the earlier post with the clip on toe ring.

And the Romoto model 3 Standard.

With the Optional rewind starter?

You also said the near completion of the Model 4,
What did you mean there Blue because the Auto with predicta
Was the start of the Model 4??
You got me baffled.

The ommision of one word can cause confusion lol...sorry it is meant to be model 4 "Automatic" is nearing its end the model 3 is in full swing and the model 5 is beginning its run...the ad is March 1958 the start of the model 5...I was just observing how the 3 intersected. NM,disregard my former post I probably confused myself

There are still some questions I have been thinking about;
Did Victa ever sell an Automatic with the Predicta flaps and ancillary pieces removed?

Also I have a Model 5 Series 2 (AA prefix) that has the Predicta base extensions and axle covers, edger slot with cover and spring clip and no holes for the safety guard on the exhaust side....My question, why remove the mouldings and holes on the exhaust side and leave them on the right hand carby side??

You mean was there a dressed down version of the Automatic deejay? I have always been of the opinion that this is correct. There are far to many mower examples with simply an auto badge fuel taps and/or groove cover nuts that are not nor have ever been True Automatics. This is still one for speculation as no Images or records exist.

We do know that the Model 4 Plain jane DID exist as its been seen in manual images.
Note the last image jonesy has put up for THE Special" You will note is is running the Model 4 Base....But what it doesnt show is either an auto badge or Special badge. So how it was marketed no one seems to know.

So The True Auto Finished and certainly a plain version model 4 or a model 4 special existed. The model 4 Non auto and Model 5 S1 special were so close in production that they all but ran into each other. We are talking now of only a few months if not less ..

So I guess until its proven we can only say for ceratin at this point that a Model 4 "Non Automatic" Existed between The Automatics end and the Model 5 S1 Began....Is it actually a special? As yet no one can confirm 100%. So If you have a model 4 with a special badge and it has a serial before approx 180,000 then chances are it is accurate as its run is so close to the model 5. the same would apply if you had a model 4 with and auto badge that also had a serial of up to 180,000 again because this is when the Model 5 S1 started so it would definately have been finished by then. We are talking about a mower amount of lets say betwee approx 128,000( Autos end) to 180,000 approx for (Model 5 S1 start). This makes around 50,000 mowers in between...So if they are making,as unkies ad suggests approx 3,000 mowers a week thats 12,000 a month so in four months we have our 50,000 mowers. Halve it for the STD and this may make around 25,000 mowers or two months in between.

So if you can follow my mess.what that means is. Between the model 4 Automatic and model 5 S1 we have only 2 months worth of the PLAIN model 4. Its such a short time frame any thing could have been put on...A: Basic Auto leftover parts or B: A special Badge.
I hope this makes sense.

As for taking away the exhaust side guard holes and Leaving the 2 holes on the carby side...Ive thought about this at length...And can only think of one conclusion...Since the edger slot has still been reatined also,I can only assume the 2 holes were left for an Edger Blade Guard". As on the following model All Extras were removed on the plain base,leaving the Edger Idea Abamdoned until its re release on the Sheerline. I would assume the edgar attachment MUST have a guard,perhaps similar to todays edgers...A half moon or cap style bolted to the edge. This is an opinion/assumption ONLY.

Thanks Mal, yes mate, it all makes sense. Hopefully someone will post a pic of one with the genuine receipt complete with the date from the dealer, in all its undressed glory.

Re; the model 5; I had thought along those lines as well, maybe being for attachment support brackets for the ill-famed edger....so we're both on the same page....Lols.

By the way Deejay your Model 5 has to be a series 1 if it has axel extensions, with maybe a later model engine.
And Blue I agree with your above assumptions, yet to see any evadence of a model 4 with a Special badge myself.

So something that had been on my mind and has been touched on by you guys, is if the Special was badged upon release, and if so, how? My initial feeling also was that it wasn't badged, so I did a little digging:

This is the earliest Special pamphlet, followed by a detail of the mower - not sure if any of you have ever seen this one:




So what does this tell us?

*In the initial phase of the Special's marketing, they had already moved to "2 mighty mowers" not three.

*The Special badge as we know it had still not been designed, as evidenced by the detail in the pamphlet. It appears they had the idea but had not yet applied it. Confirmation that the Special was released un-badged?

That is an interesting illustration, it shows the straight bar spanner.....no rubber under the tank strap, and the Predicta axle extensions and a Model 2A pulley .....and a badge very similar to the Auto with the word Special applied....a real 'bitsa'

By the way, I have more to add on my Model 5, if, as Jonesy believes, it was an original Series 1...(Predicta axle housing and base extensions), it also has the 2 hole carby top with one hole blocked off with a silver fitting with the letter 'V' stamped into it....and on pulling the handles apart, it had the remains of a plastic badge consistent with the original Special badge....In fact, I still have the broken piece. You can see it in this pic, the day Joe Carroll got it at the swap meet....


Here is a pic of the carby top.....


And the machine nearly finished...

The plot thickens.....

Agreed Unkie...The Badge is of the "Auto Style". This transition phase could well have had a few indcisions...They would not have planned the Automatic to be a flop...It could have gone on for 100,000 more models if it was a success. So it would have been all hands on deck when they decided to pull the Auto....They may not have been 100% ready to release the Model 5S1 Special as they had planned.

These remaining model 4 mowers would have to suffice for sales of some kind,else the company would fair badly with nothing to offer....Id say the Special" NAME only was brought forward to thesse models,But NO badge was ready to be used on these mowers,because they were still being prepared/made/in production for the Original Model 5 S1 Special Release.

So A case of lets use the name on our Model 4 non autos until the badges are ready to be fitted...Seems very convincing.
Your right Deejay..We have found many discrepencies in Artwork/ads thus far. I think it also proves that they werent fully ready with thier Special release. So they just relied on revamped Artwork from previous models to get a near enough.

This paticular Advert is the Most innacurate,which to me proves its also the Earliest! (And you will probaly find as time goes on,this Ad and this Exact mowers Stance were used in a prior Ad for the model 4 Auto or model 3 STD). I think this all but Solved unkie....Very Nice ads once again!.

I would tend to agree with Jonesy on that one - M5S1 with a M5S3 motor change. I do like the blocked off carby cap though - I wonder if it was a factory job?

You mentioned sales receipts for a Model 4, Deejay? Can't help there, but these were generously supplied to me:

SN: 225,146 - 6/1/1959


SN: AA18,716 - 6/10/59

Ha ha I was going to ask you to put your mower up Deejay as I hadnt seen it in its original form...But I changed my mind! lols.

Ok so what is it you need to know?

The victa cap is a Victa Factory Fix. It may have have come of your Mower Originally if its serial was low enough.

It was originally used on the models directly after the Automatic to allow the use of the single cable on the Plain Model 4. You will sometimes find they still run the twin cable slide as it wasnt necessary to change that.
Many reverted Autos dont have these caps as it was a long way down the track when they failed. Mostly owners put in screws/bolts or whatever when they failed.
You are more likely to see them on plain Specials than on Autos.

Your mower is a Model 5S1,but with a later engine. Funny, I have actually 3 AA..... serials here at present,just sold one on ebay. All 3 are model 5 S2s. And yes this Model of yours would have had the Special Badge:) Does this help any?