OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Identification of Particular Machines Victa Model 4 Automatic Specifications

This thread is concerned with the Victa Model 4 Automatic/Predicta Specification Guide with Release Date
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Look what just came up on ebay. At 118,000 would this be the latest confirmed example?
Serial # 118746

Interestingly, it has been retro fitted with a Rotomo throttle like a couple of others I have seen. Would dearly love to get my hands on that one!
Post Edit: See Post # 47970 for more pics.

Yeah just seen that myself, thought exactly the same thing about the engine No, I just want the rear flap, but so do you it even has the real early starters on it also, it's a Bast*#% living in Tassy sometimes would cost close to a couple of hundred freight, oh well see what happens.

Yes Please!!! Lets start again. While Ive been restoring and researching mowers for over 20 years,I still dont have anywhere near all the information on Victa.

Most of the information over this time has been gathered by Example,original records/manuals,clues and some detective work and luck more so than heresay. This Model 4 Automatic still holds a few unknowns. Ive been told so much information over the years by many so called experts that seem to know everything,but yet why do we still not know certain aspects of this Model?

Granted we know a lot and most of It is now common knowledge,But we as a forum need to find the interested members and owners and set up a thread with Model number and Images,so we can decipher the run as well as any other information missing. No point just going off serial numbers without images. A pictorial register will be easy enough with each interested member posting an image of his machine and brief history (if known)

Also any one who wishes to add friends or family owned mowers or Ebay examples would also be helpful,also any Ephemera or techincal info relating to the Automatic,sales brochures,maunuals,op instructions etc.

Now,we know when they started,lets find out when they finished.
110,000- 118,000....The model 3 started at around the 128,000 mark,and the model 4 special had already started, so I think we would be looking for numbers up to this mark of 128,000.

Lets see how many examples we can get and how high we can get the number too!!!. So we can come to OUR own Conclusions on accuracy once and for all!.

And yes regarding the Ebay add,it looks orginal. Note the colour of the axle mounts and no slit for such a high run...out of maybee 20 or so early examples,ive never seen this on such a high run,She is a mess,but Id buy it in a heart beat!....

Now my main point here is..The SELLER....He has been known to post other peoples Images with mower descriptions. He used anothers images to try and sell a MK1 fan mower and also a Villier from memory. Both were pulled from sale when he was queried about it. Very evasive on questions relating to the Item as well. While Im not here to Discredit this Seller,I WILL offer a Caution to those interested. Please ask lots of questions and maybee even see it if possible. Just a heads up,Hope I dont offend anyone

Your suggestion of a photographic register is a fantastic idea, Blue. I think the value of such a resource would stretch well beyond simply being an interesting read. As you've mentioned in previous posts, it's far to common for uninformed collectors to get ripped off by unscrupulous sellers, and anything to help fight the scammers would be of considerable value. Perhaps a dedicated thread to the model four is required, mods?

I'm more than happy to take some better quality photos of my example if the ball gets rolling on this one

Thought I would post these here in case the auction ends early...

Serial # 118746

And here's my Model 4


SN 117100

Arm yes I'd be a bit worried as blue said as when you look at sellers other items you find this one.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VINTAGE-...Locks&hash=item338444b713&_uhb=1
Which looks to me to be a model 3 with a later model engine.Also why is the location of this mower SALINAS C.A, United States?
What is this to collect more on freighting charges?
I'm sorry why is it also listed as an Automatic I'm glad that I have one as complete as this Automatic and not trying to chase it as I'd be scared if I was to commit to that kind of money without having it right in front of me.If anybody here is going to try and get please be careful don't hand anything over until you see it sitting on the ground in front of you.
As Blue said they have done some funny things in the past with these rare mowers.Also check there feedback 88.9% 10 bad feedback and 3 neutral,and when receives this bad feedback comes off as a smart a*#e remark.Can certainty tell who did the wrong thing.All I'm saying be careful.

$1325 with 8 and a bit days to go, reserve not met????, sure makes mine look good for $150, all it's got extra is the rear flap and the choke is busted. thought I would bid to around $700 just for the flap but this is rediculus.

You never know Jonesy could have other eBay accounts and is trying to push the price up more.I know it does happen.It's not suppose to but does.

Hey Blumbly, I don't suppose you would like to contribute to this thread with images and serial number of your Predicta?

Ha ha...I told you to be wary! This is what happened last time. The last Auto I saw in this condition with exactly the same parts went for a bit under 800.00. And in my opinion a resonably fair price. When he listed the MK1 fan,The add sounded very convincing and really informative at first glance,and he seemed to know his Models. Wasnt till later after I noticed the Image was from VM and not the Original owners,I checked and pretty much word for word was the description From VM as well.

And without getting to into the Seller,Id agree with Blumbly. Up bidding/dummy bidding is common practice on Ebay,so I wouldnt be surprised. But if this is what they are starting to fetch now...They can keep them!!!!


Ill get My Shed Auto up tonight as well Unkie,But my other one is in Golbourn with half my collection in Storage,But I have the engine no.
My first is the same as yours. My other one has rear flap only and its in a bit rougher condition,similar to the one we are discussing,but with no front bits at all. But they are both Original,With The Shed" One being bought from the original owner.

Look forward to seeing your images Blue. As per your suggestion, I did a quick newspaper search on Trove and came up with some interesting ads for the Automatic. The earliest reference I could find was the following Canberra Times advertisement from the 24th of August, 1957:



The next Images come from an advertisement that ran in the Women's Weekly from the 4th of December 1957, to the 12th of March, 1958:










The last advertisement is the latest mention of the Automatic I could find, and dates to the 13th of March, 1958. It mentions the "new" Rotomo, which appears to have superceded the Automatic:



All the above offers an interesting snapshot on the model, and much food for thought.

Also, on the last appearance of the Women's Weekly advetisememt, this appears:



So it appears the "Standard" 18" referred to is the Rotomo, not a stripped down Model 4...

Great work there guys some awesome old adds you have found.I haven't actually seen them before.

Well the auction ended early... maybe it was to good to be true...
I was actually quite shocked when I saw the price jump from $9 to around $900 in one night.
Well as the saying goes good things come to those who wait...and wait I will. And when my model 4 predicta finally comes, don't worry, I will be posting it on this great forum we have started here. Keep up the good work guys.

Nice work Unkie, But all this good Model 4 info is getting spread over too many Threads, with the info here and in the tread I started with my new 18's that sort of got swung around plus info in other threads needs to be put in one place as Blue suggested, is there a moderator who can grab this info quickly and put into a specific model 4 Thread rather than all contibutors having to manualy type it all out again???? or I am willing to if advised how to.

has anyone actually got a complete, non tampered with, fully functional example of an automatic? Ide like to see a youtube video of one working
cheers

Nice Images Unkie,
Seen the last one,but the middle section is great!

Dates are fine for the womens weekly ads. And yes your right,The last ad is exactly this. This is where the confusion started. with the winding down or canning of the automatic,the model 3 STD was released...At around the 128,00 mark and ran along side the plain model 4(undressed Auto as you say). It reatained the Rotomo base of earlier 2 and 2a with the inclusion of the 3.6 enine and cowl set up.

When the Automatic finished,as previously discussed the left over parts,ie bases badges and the like continued along side or with the Model 3 STD....somewhere in this period and prior to the model 5s release,the Special" Name was introduced. There have been a few examples of Specials" BEFORE the release of the model 5. So these few mowers would be the Specials and the model 3 rotomo the STD since it was a Utility or base model.

So You can look at it 2 ways...The model 3 is the true STD( Rotomo) and the model 4 ( dressed down Automatic with left over parts) is just the slightly higher model in options,having the automatic height adjust,muffler and alloy base,but to my knowledge this model 4 never had a name until the Special badge or title was released just prior to the Model 5s introduction. Truly what did the model 5 Special get that the dressed down model 4 did not? NOTHING,just a Special" badge.

Its quite unusual to have two STD models,especially when you have nothing to upsell to a customer.
That last ad Depicts in text the model 4 STD,as it says with alloy base features....YET displays the model 3 Rotomo STD
in the Image. I think youll find advertising fell behind production as older images were sometimes used to promote newer mowers. As you will seee in the first Images.

So if you want to use the term STD too apply to both mowers I dont think youd be inaccurate,as they model 4 version really had no title until that special badge was used also the model 4 STD if you will ran well up into the 300,000 range placing it right along side the model 5.

Not sure if anyone on this forum has a fully functional Automatic. I have only seen one in action and they are not members of this forum. There arent so many around and a lot of owners dont belong to forums like this one. A new member says he and a friend had one each,but he has yet to return with Images. A few members have semi completes that are definitely original. As more pictures are posted we may see a few more come aout from hiding....heres hoping. Unkie has supplied 2 links.....I love this link from victa collector,its an amazing Display! Thanks Unkie.

Great analysis, Blue. I didn't pick up on the reference to the alloy base in the final ad - that is damn curious, and as you say, makes a valid argument for the "naked" automatic being the (or one of the) "standard" models. I'm still trying to digest all the info...

I'm going to carry on searching for every model 4 reference/image I can find, and will continue to post them here, up until a mod decides a dedicated stickied thread may suit better.

I won't go and repost other info from the forum at this point, as Jonesy said, there must be a quicker way of drawing it together - I hope! But if you want to repost any and all model 4 images/info on this thread, that would be great.

Sounds great Unkie, We can continue to chat here for now. I think if anyone wants to contribute images and info maybe hold of and gather all they like,even if its just one picture. Then when and if the mods decide,we can maybe have 3 sub forums...One for known Accurate" Specs and History. One for owners images and light history of what they know about the machine. And one for genral discussion on anything related to The Automatic....I know space on the server is limited,but The mods can let us know there thoughts.

I was trying to nail a transition date from the Automatic to the Special and found the following:

This model five is held at the Powerhouse Museum, and was given to the museum by the Victa company. It had been retained by the company as the first example produced of this model, so if anyone needs to see an accurate example of a Model 5 Series 1, this would be it:


The museum does not mention an accurate release date, other than it being designed in 1957 and released in 1958.

So, I thought determining an accurate date for the release of the Special would be a good start. This is the earliest mention I could find. It dates to the 25th of Feb, 1958:




The next step was to see if I could find any advertisement that mentioned both the Automatic AND the Special, thus confirming both models were being retailed at the same time. This ad dates to the 12th of march, 1958:



To determine a terminal date for the sale of the Automatic, I simply went to the next listed advertisement for the Standard, which is notable for the absence of any reference to the Automatic, suggesting an end date to sales of the Automatic as no later than the date of this advertisement - the 29th of August, 1958:



Just trying to build a verifiable chronology at this point...

Another curious discovery: It appears those small holes on the front and rear axle housings were originally intended to be part of the Predicta throttle mechanism. Notice the cables running front and back to the housings and the lack of carby side throttle cables as was later adopted:

Very well done and Accurate Unkie...The release dates are known for these models:)
Its the Serial runs that are the elusive part.

Exactly as we discussed,the Automatic and Model 4/Special crossed paths,but only ever so briefly because of the demise of the Automatic.
The main issue with prevoious information was the the fact of the Specials" existance as a model 4 before the model 5 was released. Many believe it was never released before the introduction of the Model 5... I have since many times found different,having owned original examples of shall we say Model 4 Specials,and my own research.
But I This ad youve produced confirms this to be the case!!!And place the Use of the term Special" before the start of the Model 5 was released...Fantastic detective work Unkie,Your doing a fabulous Job in piecing together time lines and actuall existance of Models Prior to their percieved release dates..

The other very Important piece of info youve found lies in the third ad "2 Mighty Petrol Mowers" Note the STD for this era is the Model 2a,this proves also that even though the 2a serial preceded that of the Automatic,they were still being sold together,At least into the early run of the Automatic,and possibly up to the release of the Model 3 STD. This would ensure Victa always had 2 models at any one time. The Special and the STD... Through a little research and enthusiasm youve managed to dispel a few myths that were retained by collectors and add valuable information to the archives..Well Done!!!!

Sorry missed the last image....Hmmmm Interesting Ive seen this image before in the manual,but never thought about it. I assumed they were additional stabilizers for the flap mechs. But ive never seen them on a real life Automatic example.

The small holes at front are for the height adjust nuts to run true. I cant see any way you could get a cable through? In addition the Predicta cable point ran on the other side,out of view in the Diagram...Another reason for the Failure of the Automatic?...Too many fragile intricacies?....

The other thing it shows is that the cables or wires are inside the axle height adjust mech..would they not turn when the height adjust was raised and lowered,repositioning the flap decks accordingly by way of a cam or spindle on the flap mechanism as per diagram? So no matter what the height of the mower the flap would always be at the most affective height? Ive really no Idea. But perhaps your on to something unkie...Anyone else seen this before?

Thanks mate. I cropped the last image a little tight, but this one shows there being no carby side throttle cable, hence my assumption the cables/supports were throttle related:



May have been a concept sketch before production perhaps?

As far as the chronology is concerned, I'm glad you are getting something from the post. For clarity, here is a short summation of the dates:

24/8/57 � First advertisement for the Victa Automatic appears
4/12/57 � Women�s Weekly advertising campaign commences for the Automatic
25/2/58 � The �new� Victa Special first advertised
12/3/58 � Final Women�s Weekly advert appears mentioning the availability of an alloy based �Standard� version. The Victa Special is advertised along-side the Automatic.
13/3/58 � Last mention of the Automatic appears in an advertisement suggesting the �new� Rotomo to be the flagship product
29/8/58 � Both the Special and the Standard (Rotomo) are advertised, with the conspicuous absence of the Automatic

Can you tell me where the model release dates are located, Blue? That kind of irrefutable data will help build a more complete chronology, so I would love to get my hands on it!

its still on gumtree. There was some automatic parts on ebay about a month ago that was withdrawn from sale also....

when i said videos of a working unit i meant one actually cutting grass so we can see the predict setup working

cheers

Noooo There is NO recorded timeline or precise release dates other than advertsiing that im aware of. Let me clarify..The images you have shown and the dates you have found are memory correct to me. I have dates but need to go through my own records to match with yours,but they will be the same....The information is scattered in many posts (and not in this forum) that Im aware of. A lot of the dates you have given are from Ads previously researched by others in the same way you are doing now. There is some timeline information in....Turning grass into lawn"The Victa Story" By John Mason. I dont have a copy since it was a very small print run,and ive been trying for years. Also What info is in there people do not share willingly. Sorry to get your hopes up,but unfortunately this is how we have to gather a lot of our Info,by the way you are doing it now:) In order to obtain exact Victa release dates would be if your lucky enough to have original "Inhouse Victa Memos" The Ads are the only other indication of release. The only other i can think of in this forum who would possibly have any more info or Ads on release dates would be Blumbly

Ahhh, I see. I guessed that would be the case. I'm always baffled as to why people would arrogantly with-hold information... petty, petty stuff.

I guess it re-enforces the value of this king of empirical, research based info. Too many attempts to fill in gaps with hearsay, speculation and half-truths leads to a pretty inaccurate historical record. I'll just keep plugging away, finding tangible facts and post them as I find them. As this research approach falls pretty neatly into my day-job skill-set, I get a fair bit of satisfaction from the process, and do it more to satisfy my own curiosity rather than anyone else, but love the help/support none the less